People in northern Iraq are building cities and name them "American Village"; they copy the looks of American fast food restaurants (but hopefully not the food), they learn English and try to be more American.

Children in Anbar province paint graffities of Iraqis and Americans joining forces to fight Al-Qaeda terrorists. Muslims in Baghdad are calling for Iraqi Christians to return to the country and attend service in St. John's Catholic church to show their loyalty to their Christian neighbours.

Why is it that the US and George Bush are now more popular in Iraq than among liberals? Liberals hate George Bush for what he is doing to Iraq. Iraqis love him for it.

G-d bless Iraq and the Iraqis.

Sometimes I wonder if you even read the articles that you link to...the issue wasn't whether or not to send care packages -- it was whether or not you could collect donations in a polling place. Remember, no political activities can occur in the polling place --that's why the poll workers have to stand in the freezing cold!

And, in the last paragraph the Mayor said that the removal was a communication breakdown and that the city would work with the boy scouts to make sure that their care package drive is a success.

Leauki, I respectfully disagree. I think that the average Iraqi is about as thankful for the American occupation as the average Lebanese is grateful to Israel for benevolently bombing half of Lebanon back to the stone age last year. You cannot bring peace and democracy to a country at gunpoint. I'm sure that all the Iraqis do indeed love George Bush as you state above. They must especially love him for his compassionate treatment of Fallujah, and even appreciate his sense of humour for the good-natured pranks carried out at Abu Ghraib. Even more so, I'm sure they also cheer the free market reforms which he brought to their country which subsequently plunged unemployment to levels far worse than when Sadam was in power. They've even been introduced to the magic that is out-sourced contractors. I'm sure they're thrilled with the fact that a Blackwater employee can kill their own citizens at will and be completely immune to any sort of prosecution or punishment (except of course being fired by Blackwater, oooh that sure taught him a lesson!)

Violence has gone down in Iraq somewhat. This is not because of the extra 30,000 US soldiers were the magic bullet that calmed everything down. There are more Shiite militia members (many of whom are also part of the various government security services) than there are US soldiers in Iraq. Add on to it thousands of remaining Sunnis that until recently were shooting at U.S troops. Neither of these factions have any love for the US, but both groups have learned the lesson that if they lay low the Americans will get out of dodge sooner- but by no means have they layed down their arms yet. They are biding their time, and they won't just one day say "hey, these Americans are good guys, let's all live happily ever after!!". All it will take is one proclamation from the Ayatolla in Iran and the U.S forces in Iraq will be in more trouble than they can imagine. If you think TET was bad, just wait till you see the footage when the green zone gets overrun.

Leauki, I respectfully disagree. I think that the average Iraqi is about as thankful for the American occupation as the average Lebanese is grateful to Israel for benevolently bombing half of Lebanon back to the stone age last year.

But oddly enough Iraqis still vote for a government that wants the Americans to stay and celebrate with the Americans, name cities for America, copy American fast foo restaurants, and paint graffities speaking of the Iraqi-American alliance.

How do you explain all these things? (And on what information do you base your own interpretation?)

As for Lebanon, it doesn't seem to me that Hizbullah is more popular among the majority of the population than Israel.

You cannot bring peace and democracy to a country at gunpoint.

Please. You are speaking to someone who grew up in Germany, in American-occupied West-Berlin. I happen to have seen it. I know that you can bring democracy to a country at gunpoint.

This "cannot bring democract to a country at gunpoint" seems to me, I am sorry, a stupid slogan that has no basis in history. It's a convenient mantra but it is not an argument.

 

I'm sure that all the Iraqis do indeed love George Bush as you state above. They must especially love him for his compassionate treatment of Fallujah, and even appreciate his sense of humour for the good-natured pranks carried out at Abu Ghraib.

You are assuming that the majority of Iraqis had great sympathy for the Baathists that were tortured in Abu Ghraib. Why do you assume that? The majority of Iraqis are Shiites who hated and hate Saddam and his ilk with a passion. They cheered when Saddam was executed, they do not have strong feelings of love for the people who oppressed them for so many years.

Even more so, I'm sure they also cheer the free market reforms which he brought to their country which subsequently plunged unemployment to levels far worse than when Sadam was in power.

Average income has gone up considerably since the end of the sanctions. It is possible that employment was higher under Saddam. After all, the man killed those he didn't like (Shiites, Kurds, Jews etc.) and gave their jobs to his supporters. The argument "but under Saddam there was less unemployment" is about as stupid as the old "under Hitler there was no unemployment" mantra. It doesn't work that way.

Tell me one thing the Americans did that caused unemployment. My guess is that unemployment is caused by the terrorists blowing stuff and people up. Proof? In Kudistan, which is terrorist-free but also under occupation, unemployment is going down.

So please tell me, what are you basing your observations on? I am seeing reports of Iraqis celebrating American troops and from that I deduce that Iraqis are celebrating American troops? What, apart from sarcasm, do you have to back up your statements?

To be quite honest, I do not believe that you have ANY information on Iraq except what the press report. And the press don't seem to report the good things. Did you know that Iraqis are naming cities after America? Did you know that graffitis in Sunni provinces celebrate the Iraqi-America alliance? Did you see pictures of what life was like for Kurds and Shiites under Saddam?

If not, why not? And if you ask yourself that question, consider whether you have any idea of what's going on if you haven't heard of or seen any of those things.

 

 

 

I think [...]

And that's the point exactly. You "think". I reported what I read. You "think" that the situation is not as it looks in the reports I found. But can you tell me why you "think" that the Iraqis do not like the American troops? What do you base the idea on? Is it so obvious to you that the American troops are hated, by a population that has faced Saddam and Al-Qaeda?

Iraqi _children_ are drawing graffitis that show the Americans in a good light and want their pictures to be taken by Americans. So what makes you think that they don't like the American troops?

I have seen the reports in CNN. They always focus on whatever bad news can be gotten without talking to people. But what they do not do is report anything about the people at all. So whatever you "think" must be your own imagination. Or did CNN tell you that Iraqis dislike American troops?

I remember that a German news site reported that Iraqis don't like the occupation. But they did not report how they know and why Iraqis vote so differently from their alleged opinions. Why do Iraqis name cities after America? Why do Iraqi children draw graffities celebrating their relationship with American troops? What did the Iraqis do or say that make you "think" that they hate the occupation?

Don't tell me you base your opinion on what the "resistance" are doing. The "resistance" are mostly foreigners from Jordan and Saudi Arabia and are well-hated by the Sunnis, the Kurds, and certainly the Shiites. Al-Qaeda and the Ba'athists do not actually represent Iraq, except in the minds of liberals.

 

For the most part, I agree. But this point is in real danger. Not from Liberals or America, but from Turkey. The kurds are a people divided by 3 nations, and right now, the only place they really have a say in their lives is Iraq. And the other 2 countries cannot tolerate that.

Depends upon your viewpoint, right? I guess those nasty colonials did that 230 years ago on another continent, and to another nation.

I think you nailed it pretty well. Except for the part about the pre-disposition.

This is very true, and directly to the point. To the point that some would deny some modest relief from the trials of Iraq (as one of our own recently documented from experience) in order to make a point. They made the point, and the stink of the light of day now have them equivocating. That is actually good. For perhaps the next group that decides to shaft the soldiers with lame excuses of "Politics", will think twice about it. I am willing to bet a years salary that not all of the GIs that were denied by this action like Bush. We have an example here at JU of one that detests him, yet does his duty (and I am not talking about the Faux Col klink).

Second, you have no more proof of this (other than anecdotal) than Leauki has of his point.

Actually, he has no _anecdotal_ proof either. He just stated his view, he didn't refer to any reports saying so nor did he explain why Iraqis would think like he claims they do.

I base my opinion on the facts that I have heard and read about. The villages named in English and after America are real, and so are the pro-American graffitis and the election results in Iraq. The Iraqi president, who has again and again thanked the coalition for liberating his country (his words), is real.

But whether or not the liberals base their view on reality is a different matter.

The Iraqi president:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007289

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070531-18.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_btIGD-sTPg&feature=related

On the other hand, the Youtube commenters who decry the video have absolutely no idea what Iraq was like under Saddam and what it is like today.

Iraq under Saddam, for the majority of people:

http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/

http://halapja.9neesan.com/

This is not stuff that conservatives or Republicans or Tony Blair have made up. It is the bitter reality of the stable, peaceful Iraq that liberals soi much prefer over the current "disaster". Even the terrorists attacking Iraq today cannot compete with Saddam's killer machine.

For Shiites, it was a Holocaust. For Kurds, it was being gased. And it was France or Germany that sold Saddam the gas. Can you imagine how proud I am of my birth country, that in the name of "peace" (i.e. the pictures above which apparently represent "peace") we stood up to George Bush and tried to keep Saddam in power? "Our friends in the security council" he called France and Germany.

Both countries denied to be his friends, of course. But when it comes to friendship (and French oil deals) deeds are more important than words.

Face it, America is hated by those who gas children. And if I were American, I would be proud.

 

This is not stuff that conservatives or Republicans or Tony Blair have made up. It is the bitter reality of the stable, peaceful Iraq that liberals soi much prefer over the current "disaster". Even the terrorists attacking Iraq today cannot compete with Saddam's killer machine.

No, you do not understand spin (and I will qualify that by saying that Artysim is above it, regardless of how similar his opinions may be at times)).  To them, reality is irrelevant.  Only their warped perspective is real.  And so, yes, it is made up.  And no amount of proof (and forget God stating anything since they do not believe in one) will change that.  We are not talking about rational thinking people.  Just ones that have a single agenda.  Hate.  And there is no rational answer to hate.

Wow. Cool thread. Amazing what passes for political discourse these days. Everyone's got opinions, few have real knowledge...me included. I do know this, that there are a lot of folks who keep saying they support the troops but hate the war. Are the two things really so opposite that they cannot exist in the same brain? Get real. Nobody...and I mean NOBODY...hates war as much as the kids who have to fight it. What the lefties (and anyone else who quotes this mantra) really mean is they could not give a crap less about the troops, they just want to make some political capital with a stupid, meaningless slogan.