i don't think i could have said it better myself, and i'm not sure i would have if i could. i decided to back away from these discussion for a while because i was getting a little too zealous about such misconceptions (on science's side of things).

i crossed a line. i've said repeatedly that i think it's important to understand an idea on its own terms before you criticize it. i still think that's true, but somewhere my attempts to explain science turned into attempts to explain why the truth of science should be self-evident. i apologize to anyone i've offended or helped to push this discussion in a distasteful direction. consciously my biggest goal is to find common ground, but i'm human, and my emotions can have other things to say about such issues.

I have nothing against God, to have something against him would be to believe in him in some way. As I said, If I turn out to be wrong, and there is a God, then simply being sent to a place where God is not, is just the same as my life now. And I lose nothing, though I gain nothing either, but it makes no difference...except i'll be dead.

Also, you say those who fear God.... Why would I fear a being that does not exist to me? How can I know someone, who I know does not exist. Is it not religious people that are described as "God Fearing"? In fact, it would seem the term is one that denotes "good" people.
And what makes your God the One I should follow? What About Jehova, Allah, Brahama, Shiva, Kali, Britannia, Epona, Arwn, Bran, Llyr, Manawyddan? What makes your God worth knowing, Any more than these others?... Let me guess.... it's because they don't exist, but yours does?

If that's the case, you'll need to come up with some other reason because it won't wash with me.... though, no argument that you give would convince me. God himself could appear to me, with all his supposed power, and still i'd class him as an Alien intelligence that is simply more advanced than me. No more worthy of worship as the next creature.

A fair comment from your perspective. When i read revelations and come to the part where humans try to fight God,,,, i wonder if this same thing is what they will be thinking? Independance day gone wrong!! woops.

I wonder about the story of Abraham, when God asked him to sacrifice his son.... if that was me, i would just think it was the devil pretending to be God and i would refuse. my point is, how did Abraham know it was God?

On the other hand even if i knew it was God commanding me, i do not think i could consider doing somthing evil? I mean isn't that kind of faith - the same faith Abraham had, what leads to suicide bombers etc etc. What is the difference between a suicide bomber who thinks God is commanding him and Abraham walking up the hill to sacrifice his son?

It is puzzling to me?

so

IS that a question that asking for me to expand on that comment, or are you just saying "so" as a way of saying that my view is irrelivent?

Or perhaps you intend to make an apparently random comment that is open to interpretation?

Or perhaps you'd like to comment on my view that

"I guess for those of us who do not believe, it is puzzling. I can read the bible and understand it all, but wihtout the faith, it has no true "meaning". I think it is the same for those with faith, they can see why ( I hope ) we don't believe, but can't understand the real "why" so to speak.

Yet Christians will more happily arue matters of faith etc, with Atheists, but I doubt the majority would stand toe to toe with a Muslim, Jew, Hindu,Sikh (sp?) and debate such things. They all agree a God or Gods exist, so that must give them some common ground, but they won't argue about whose God is the real one.

The only relgious group they will debate with are pagans, be that wicca or some other type. They like to throw the name Pagan as an insult.... not thinking that they are beliefs that predate their own by thousands of years, and that pagans are proud of what they are. lol"

Perhaps if you disagree with something i'd said, you'd like to say why you do. Though I can't see why because as I quoted above here, i'm quite happy to live alongside faith in general.

One thing that religions don't seem to preach is the idea of " each to their own ".
Thankfully there are Liberal christians/muslims etc.. who are willing to be more tolerant to other people. My issue are with the conservative ones who take stuff like Romans 1:26-27 and see that it is Gods direct word that Homosexuality is wrong for example.

That is the kind of stuff where I say "so". It has no effect on christians, worry about your own soul, let others worry about theirs.

Has anyone looked into the behaviours of Christian missionaries in the Pacific during the Colonial Era? Or Muslim slave raiders of the late medeavil? Shocking behaviour.

Right, now I get you
It was kind of hard to get that from "so"... sorry if I came across a bit harsh in response.

I'd say that we are our own predators, at least now. Before we had the tools to defend/hunt etc, we were at the mercy of many animals.

A convenient cop-out. You said:



This question presumes that there is a God, and you explicitly said, regardless of your actual belief in God, that if there were a God, you would prefer existence without God.

So, I ask again, what do you have against the mere idea of God?



Point being that if you don't want to be with God, you must have a perspective of God that is unappealing to you, and you, for lack of a better word, fear this God.

God, by definition, is a perfect being. Now, while none of us can conceive objectively of "perfection", subjectively we all have our own images of perfect qualities. Each person's conception of a perfect being would reflect qualities that that person values, and one would be instinctively drawn to such a person, for that reason.



Correction: you believe he does not exist.



Yes, that is the archaic phrase. I however was speaking literally, sorry for the confusion.



One unfortunate side-effect of Judeo-Christianity is that they rarely refer to God with a name. When I say "God", I don't necessarily mean the God described in the Bible. I mean my own conception of God, as I described above. I never said you should follow my God. You should follow your God, the "perfect being" that you conceive. I doubt that we would see eye to eye on what defines a perfect being, though we could certainly start a morality thread, if you wish.



Certainly. God isn't an explanation for physical phenomena, I would first look for a logical solution to physical experiences I have.



I sure as hell wouldn't sacrifice my son (not that I have any anyways). But my God would never demand the sacrifice of my son.



Don't disillusion yourself into thinking atheism is "non-belief", it is a definite belief that God doesn't exist (a- : no, theos : deity, -ism : belief)



I more or less agree with this. I am under the impression that everyone here is so of their own free will, correct? No one feels oppressed?



I agree with this except to the point where one tries to justify wrongdoing with religion alone. Like Muslim terrorist bombings, for example.

P.S. Sorry for being a little behind. Internet connection has been funky lately.

1989 earthquake in san fransico man survives for four days in about 10 inches of space. did i mention he was diabitic. a diabitic cannot survive 4 days without food.

same quake 2 kids survive in a car that is crushed and their mom and aunt/friend are killed. yes one losses his leg. but the point is that they survived.

each and every new born.

Heheheh. lol. Good response. Made me laugh.

You cannot give evidence for matters of faith. Period. Can't happen. Sorry. Metaphysical things are, by definition, outside the physical realm. Evidence/facts are, by definition, restricted to the physical realm. There's a chasm here that cannot be crossed, like in the mind/body problem. The real question, then, is why people should/could believe in something that by its very nature can have no evidence. That's why these conversations turn to philisophical merits.

i think you missed something

the day and hour that that earthquake hit there was supposed to be 100,000 people on that road. there was about 100.

why weren't there more becouse there was a stupid baseball game

i finally figured it out.


it has been staring us in the face the whole time.


one of gods day is equal to the length of time that the sun takes to orbit the galaxy.

which i believe we are now on the 13th orbit. don't know where in that orbit we are.



sorry had no other place to put this.