I thought it was because some Iranians were captured in Iraq and then Iran had been waiting for an opportunity to return the favour, but the opportunity never came so then they hatched a plan to simply manufacture the opportunity instead?

No, opening fire in another nations waters is no way near a decleration of war, but is of course somthing to be taken seriously.

I wonder what Britains policy would be if it was Iranians accidently in their territory? I would think they would just inform them of their mistake and escort them back to international waters.

Well it matters because if Britain or Iran want to complain about what the other is doing then you might wan't to know who the hypocrits are. My bet is on Iran for that one!

Nicely put there Oz... I would think that anyone who plays this game knows about superior firepower and what it can accomplish! Even though real life 'shouldn't be this way', it sadly is and it also makes perfect sense. If my stick is bigger than your stick are you really going to chance taking a swat at me? I doubt it... but there are some stupid people out there.

Or of reason



Your right, it seems to be working fabulously in Iraq.



Ofcourse it doesnt, but for that one single conflict it mattered, even the sailors admited to the fact they were in Iranian waters, not because it was the truth, but because it kept them and Britain out of trouble.

First point is that military spending is usually associated as a percentage of GDP, so even though one country may spend 20 million on military and another spends 20 billion, no one is concearned if they are both spending 10% of GDP.

Second point is that yes there is a bit of overkill in the technology, but i do not think this is an issue at this point. If America was fighting a serious enemy, you know, as in WW2 kinda thing then it could end up being too expensive to sustain such high technology. It might be wise to have low technology options that can be churned out in large numbers in a massive war of attrition, but i think they might call that one Armageddon?

If you have a warship in the Persian Gulf as a show of force, then to allow it to do nothing while a small craft abducts your military personnel is absurd. If it is reasonable that "Cornwall" did nothing, then "Cornwall" shouldn't have been there at all. If "Cornwall" shouldn't be there at all, then no military force at all should be there.

That's a valid argument - would the region be better off if we didn't interfere at all? I don't think so, but it is certainly open for debate.



If we are preventing a civil war with resulting high civilian casualties, then it is working. Did we cause the civil war by removing Saddam? Perhaps. If you are arguing that we should not be causing any civilian casualties, then would it have been acceptable to leave Saddam in power while he was torturing and killing his own people? Was his decision to gas the Kurds acceptable to you?



So we should all agree to an expedient lie to stay out of trouble? Look at how Neville Chamberlain handled Hitler in the 1930s and then tell me it is always best to appease agressive rulers.



Its arguable. The stock market is at record highs and the economy is growing, even while we are throwing billions into Iraq. I saw an interesting chart in Newsweek yesterday. In the 1970s defense spending was 60% of the US budget. Now, even with Iraq, it is about 25%. Currently entitlement programs (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) are 60% of the budget. If there is a drag on the economy, look there.



At this point our military is so overextended I doubt we could invade Staten Island right now.

Again, money that 'doesn't exist' except in someone's ledger. So the stock market is at record highs huh? Based on what? Real gold backing real paper or theoretical, non tangible assets looking good on paper/tickers? I doubt the numbers are based on actual gold sitting in our reserves, which would have to be there to back the paper push right? Yeah, sure it is. And our economy? How is it 'growing'? Sure, five hundred McDonald's opened up country wide and now there are hundreds of demeaning six dollar an hour jobs on the table... gee that is good for the economy, now if only I could afford the Big Mac to help pay all of those unskilled laborers. I get a little pissed when people refer to the economy as 'growing' when all that is being produced is service jobs. Waiters, waitresses, maids, and food servers... yeah, what I want my economy built and reliant on.
I don't have the stats or the figures, but now it's your turn to 'show me'. Show me where the economy is growing and then show me how it is growing. What kind of jobs cropped up? Who got raises? Where is the supposed trickle down effect (aside from the piss trickling down the rich man's leg and onto my head)? Please Oz, show me the light so that I may become a respectable republican such as yourself!
Seriously though, are there any numbers to back up your claims? I want something tangible, not theoretical.

The fact that the GNP is growing and unemployment is at record lows is generally pointed to as signs that the economy is growing. Check the "grumpy as hell" post for some great debate about what these numbers really mean.

From the US Bureau of Labor Employment Cost Index

Series Id: CIU1010000000000A (B,C)Not Seasonally Adjustedcompensation: Total compensationsector: All Civilianperiodicity: 12-month percent changeIndustryocc: All workers

Year Qtr1 Qtr2 Qtr3 Qtr4 Annual
2001 3.9 4.0 4.1 4.2
2002 3.8 3.7 3.5 3.3
2003 3.8 3.7 3.9 3.9
2004 3.7 3.8 3.8 3.7
2005 3.6 3.2 3.0 3.1
2006 2.8 3.0 3.3 3.3
2007 3.5

Average compensation has shown a 3.0 - 3.5 increase per year for the last six years.
So if we kept the same job we should expect a 3% raise every year.

In the last ten years I have been promoted twice, as has my wife, which has a positive impact on our standard of living.

United States Economy at a Glance
Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr
2006 2006 2007 2007 2007 2007
Unemployment Rate (,1,) 4.5 4.5 4.6 4.5 4.4 4.5
Change in Payroll Employment (,2,) 196 226 162 90 177(,P,) 88(,P,)
Average Hourly Earnings (,3,) 16.99 17.07 17.10 17.16 17.21(,P,) 17.25(,P,)
Consumer Price Index (,4,) 0.0 0.4 0.2 0.4 0.6 0.4
Producer Price Index (,5,) 1.6 0.7 -0.6(,P,) 1.3(,P,) 1.0(,P,) 0.7(,P,)
U.S. Import Price Index (,6,) 0.4 1.1 -1.2 0.4 1.5 1.3
Employment Cost Index (,7,9,10,) 0.9 0.8
Productivity (,8,) 2.1 1.7

Footnotes:
(P) Preliminary
(1) In percent, seasonally adjusted. Annual averages are available for Not Seasonally Adjusted data.
(2) Number of jobs, in thousands, seasonally adjusted
(3) For production and nonsupervisory workers on private nonfarm payrolls, seasonally adjusted
(4) All items, U.S. city average, all urban consumers, 1982-84=100, 1-month percent change, seasonally adjusted
(5) Finished goods, 1982=100, 1-month percent change, seasonally adjusted
(6) All imports, 1-month percent change, not seasonally adjusted
(7) Compensation, all civilian workers, quarterly data, 3-month percent change, seasonally adjusted
(8) Output per hour, nonfarm business, quarterly data, percent change from previous quarter at annual rate, seasonally adjusted
(9) Includes wages, salaries, and employer costs for employee benefits.
(10) See Footnote C on www.bls.gov/ncs/ect/cimapnote.htm

Data extracted on: May 15, 2007

Source : U. S. Bureau of Labor

Unemployment is staying low, hourly wages are rising, and the COnsumer Price Index is relatively flat. I would say that this show a growing economy, but your comment about poorly-paid service jobs generating the growth is well taken. I haven't been able to find any job creation statistics. I can't wait to see how you respond, as always!

are you sure that's not in "Poverty, an Economic Necessity?", or am i missing another fun game of splitting numbered hairs?

yea... but when we were looking for someone (anyone!) to oppose the Ayatollah, we picked Saddam. what do we do now? that's a tough one. we led ourselves into a really tough situation. i know i'd certainly be reaching out to the international community more than we are, and in the spirit of asking for advice and cooperation, not political support and blind agreement with what our government decides. i think we tend to fall on our face when we go to the international community because we ask for puppets, not partners.

Damn, Stormbringer. That really, really sucks. Nothing like a mortgage to focus your priorities, huh?

Do you get to move up to another position at some point? They can't be telling you you've hit the end of the line after a year, can they? There must be something else.

My jobs over the years have not always been the most glamorous and I've taken a few jobs just because I needed a paycheck. But I've never had a job that I thought was a dead end. You've got it tough. Well, in 30 years you can retire!    Assuming that Social Security is still there...



Yeah, but France and Germany are already in bed with the Iraqi oil industry and they don't see any need for change. Like Stormbringer said,



The European nations are done risking their troops in what has deteriorated into a civil war, a war that they feel we caused. Maybe they're right.

again i may be speaking out of turn but same problem up here. with the amount of new immigrants (55% of toronto and almost all af vancouver) they are cheap and in renovations since the early 90s ive probably taken a 20000$ drop in pay. almost impossible to get into university when you support a wife and young son. with the amount of lost jobs from manufacturing going to china and the rest of the cheap labour force areas people have to work so if they have a stationwagon and a barely legal ladder they undercut my prices and will work for 50$ a day. and then the taxes, but I DO WORK HARD BECAUSE MILLIONS ON WELFARE DEPEND ON IT.