Video Games Are Anti-Social and Addictive

I personally don't think Hell is eternal burning, I think of it as life without God. Maybe that's a heretical thought. Maybe not. But that's what I think.

And please don't tell me that people are religious because of their parents. If the world was that way then everyone would have the same religion.

I have not read much about near death experiences, and I have no interest in them. Whatever they may reveal, they shall not turn me away from my beliefs.

And it is true that the Bible has been translated into many ways. That's the problem with multiple languages. I'd hope it hasn't been changed too much from the original, though I wouldn't be surprised if it has been. The temptation to use religion for power can be very...erm, powerful. If the Koran is true, and Islam turns out to be the truth, then oh well. I will not have lost anything by believing in my faith. I have nothing to lose. Either I'm right, and hopefully I end up in Paradise, or I'm wrong, and no harm is done.

The bible also says homosexuals are an abomination to be killed, but then murder is a sin.

What? From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

I don't know whether or not you're a Catholic, but I am, and I use this as well as the Bible as a handbook for life.

Anyways, as I stated before this conversation is useless. In case you haven't figured it out yet, nobody ever wins in religious arguments. Beliefs and opinions cannot and should not be questioned.

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With regard to the OP, I can totally agree and disagree with your opinion. However, I truely beleive you have several very valid points.

I look at video games as any other form of recreation. If you take it to an extreme, it becomes anti-social. I was an RA in College (1 of 3 jobs I held - guess my addiction

), and I had 2 guys who were addicted to video games. Halo and Socom 3. Now all they did was MP, which you could argue that they weren't anti-social, they were mearly playing with their friends. But, They stopped going out with us. They didn't eat, sleep, go to class. They both almost failed out of college.

It's like any other "pleasure". Too much is a bad thing. I had a guy who was addicted to working out. Drug abusers, alcoholics, Gamblers, I had them all.

BUT, I had many many more people who knew moderation. They enjoyed a video game everyone once in a while. I remember back in the day, bonding with my friends at home over Goldeneye. We played Risk too. But we also went out on the town.

I think its really a balancing act. Don't let your hobbies, recreation, whatever you wish to call it get in the way of the rest of your life. If you do, then you lose focus on the important things, lose touch, lose yourself.

And that is something that no one wants to happen.

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Anyways, as I stated before this conversation is useless. In case you haven't figured it out yet, nobody ever wins in religious arguments. Beliefs and opinions cannot and should not be questioned.

You are of course right on the first statement. I guess we will all find out if God is an evil rotten bastard when billions scream out in unison for all eternity.... for the purpose of entertaining those in Heaven I guess. Actually, Heaven could become Hell in a way. Perhaps your wife (I will just assume you are a male and married for sake of argument), didn't really accept Christ as her prsonal savior, but only "paid lip service" to Christ. You die and go to Heaven, so wonderful. Your wife, however, goes to Hell. Enjoy Heaven for all eternity..... Don't let the agonizing screams of your wife haunt you when you are in Heaven..... Whether or not Hell is burning for eternity or "eternal seperation" from God, by definition, I suppose Hell is something far worse than even are most twisted minds could comptemplate....

If Hell is real, fine. Then God is an evil bastard beyond human contemplation. And if thats the truth, then that sucks.

With regards to your final statment, we would still be living in caves or walking around in sandals if beliefs and opinions weren't questioned. We would still think the world is flat. So I would have to say your last statment is flat out wrong.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

OK, it seems like nobody's closing this thread, so I'll take my chances with a reply.

I personally don't think Hell is eternal burning, I think of it as life without God. Maybe that's a heretical thought. Maybe not. But that's what I think.

That's actually a lot more accurate than the "burning" hell which Stanley seems to be obsessed with. I think the "burning hell" is a mistranslation.

Here's an email exchange I made with somebody recently (probably somebody on this forum):

> ok, start with your arguments about why a Hell of infinite torture is real and God is
> not evil

First of all, let's cleanly split your questions:

As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), the questions you are asking are:

1) Is hell real?

2) Is sending people to hell evil?

First, the question of the reality of hell: This isn't just a question only about hell - this is a question about the existence of anything spiritual, and usually boils down the the question of the existence of the spiritual world. So I will answer the question about the existence of the spiritual world, and assume that if God and other spiritual things exist, then heaven, hell, and other spiritual concepts are likely to exist as well.

First of all, modern science lacks the proper tools to directly test the existence of a deity: We can neither confirm nor deny his existence through direct scientific means, so the question is left open as unanswered, probably unanswerable through direct observational science.

That doesn't present a problem for Christianity, however: They never claimed to be a science. They claim to be a faith-based religion.

So, we turn to other ways to look at the spiritual world: Our known historical records and archeology. So far, it seems that the vast majority of the historical (and indeed, the current) world was religious in some way or another - indeed, even the earliest records of human activity indicate a belief in the spiritual. The spiritual world does not seem to be "invented" somewhere along the way, as we have no record of its invention. So far, this has been an axiomatic belief of most people for a long time, and most people would ask if there were proof that God or the spiritual world didn't exist - and so far, that evidence has been lacking.

So, with science not being able to answer the question, and with only our history to rely on, I prefer to take the default position and ask if there is any evidence against the existence of a spiritual world.

On to the next question, then: Is sending people to hell evil?

This implies that hell is a place of eternal torture. Although this is the common modern view of hell, it is probably not accurate. From what I understand from the sources I'm reading, a better understanding is a separation from God, and a place of great shame and humiliation. The idea of hell being a place of torture was probably a bad translation of this concept into our modern society, which is based more on pain than shame.

It seems the entire purpose of hell is simply misunderstood, and it's not so much about punishment as it is deciding not to be with God. Most Christian beliefs teach that going to hell is not imposed on anybody, but rather that the individual decides he/she doesn't want to be with God. God doesn't force anybody to join him in heaven, so they end up separated from God, which is pretty much what the orthodox definition of hell is.

References used:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/eyesopen.html
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hinvent.html
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/sh1college.html
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/hello.html
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gutripper.html
http://www.tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html

I have yet to receive a response (either that, or my ISP blocked it - they tend to be overzealous about their spam filtering sometimes

).

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I haven't responded to you yet. Actually, your view on Hell isn't as unreasonable, although I am assumming that in the above scenario Hell is eternal. See eternal ANYTHING could be Hell. Think about it. Lets say for all eternity you had to sit in front of your computer and play galciv 2 DA. Eventually, you would get so sick of the game that having to play it for all eternity would become Hell.

Irregardless of what Hell is, whether it is "burning forever" or "eternal seperation from God", Hell really, really, sucks. Due to the eternal nature of Hell, it is infinite evil. If I could press a button and send you to the Hell that Christians believe in, I just don't see how that wouldn't be the absolutely most evil thing I could possibly do. I mean, torturing people in this world is considered very, very evil. We make our worst horror films like Saw 3 based on that premise that torture could actually be considered more evil than killing someone. One of the most evil seriel killers of all time (forgot his name) shackled women in his basement for the purpose of torturing them daily. In fact he was careful to keep them alive just so he could continue to torture them. This guy was a real monster.

I just don't understand how God is not evil for sending people to Hell for not believing in Jesus. I mean, WHY does God have to send us to Hell?? Do I have to shoot my son in the face with a shotgun if he can't perform advanced calculus (an impossible task for a 5 year old) and if he doesn't beg forgiveness in my dead grandmother's name??? Is God stupid??? The reason I say that is God creates us as imperfect beings who sin (If God hates sin so much, couldn't he just create us all to be sinless and perfect??), and yet he holds us to IMPOSSIBLE STANDARDS?????? The bible itself says that God apparently holds us to impossible standards. Why???? Why the hell (no pun intended) would God create us as sinful, imperfect beings, and then hold us to impossible standards, prescribing us infinite punishment for failing to meet impossible standards??????????

WTF????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

although I am assumming that in the above scenario Hell is eternal.

Well, God doesn't force people into heaven if they don't want to, and if they didn't want God on Earth, I doubt they'd want him in the afterlife.

Irregardless of what Hell is, whether it is "burning forever" or "eternal seperation from God", Hell really, really, sucks.

True.

If I could press a button and send you to the Hell that Christians believe in, I just don't see how that wouldn't be the absolutely most evil thing I could possibly do.

People are pushing the button themselves; God isn't touching it. He's pushing the Heaven button. It's believed that God creates faith, but people reject it.

The reason I say that is God creates us as imperfect beings who sin

Re-read Genesis. You can blame satan and Adam and Eve for that.

The bible itself says that God apparently holds us to impossible standards. Why????

Yes and no. First, he's infinitely good, so he really can't stand any sort of evil. But you forget the other side of the coin - he's also merciful, so he's willing to forgive us. That's what the gospel and faith are all about. Sure, if he were truly evil as you claim, he would've sent us all there with no chance of being able to get to heaven. But there is a way to get to heaven, and God supplies that way, and that contradicts your claims of God being evil.

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These are good questions being asked. While I don't have all the answers, I am still Christian. I can't wait till I understand absolutely everything about the universe before I believe in God.

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So if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned thousands of years ago, I would be perfect and sinless???? Also, why does Satin even exist? Why does God allow Satin to exist and corrupt us anyway? I have lived for 26 years and I have never once had a nightmare with some kind of horned deamon or felt "Satin's presence" or any of that nonsense.

See here is the thing. You can apparently live for 80 years and torture and rape women every day of your life, and be a person that makes Hitler look like a carebear. Then when you turn 80, you suddenly "turn" to Jesus. Now, lets look at the 20 year old Hindu boy. The boy lives a good life that puts are American lives to shame. He gives to the poor, is completely unselfish, etc. But hey, he dies without knowing Jesus, because nonone told him. So he is screwed now forever???? Anyway, as it was said before this argument is pointlss. The very definition of being a Christian is to just flat out consider other ideas of God and the afterlife as heresy, no matter what. No matter if traditional Christianity with "eternal Hell" is an utter abomination of sense and reason. I will end this post with a refute to a quote:

This argument serves no purpose. I could get you a recording of Jesus Christ Himself and you'll find some way to question me. Good-bye.

To which I reply: This argument serves no purpose. I could show you anecdotal evidence from thousands of real life people today who have had near death experiences, where they died, saw the afterlife, and came back to life, painting a picture of the afterlife that is very different than what tradiional Christianity teaches. Suffice to say though, that near death experiences don't show an eternity of Hell for those who don't "accept" Jesus. You would still find a way to question all these thousands of near death experiences. Good bye.

One last thing: How do you know you are "saved". How would you ever know that you are truly "saved", afterall, the Devil supposedly believes in Jesus I am sure.

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Oh yeah, I forgot you have to "repent". Well if you ask me, no one here has truly "repented for their sins". Everytime you play a videogame or watch T.V. I think that is a sin if you are a Christian, because you should be spending that time spreading the word of God and Jesus. But as I doubt you are truly sorry of your sins when you play this game or watch T.V., or do anything to entertain yourself, you haven't truly repented. So, how the Hell do you know if you have "repented" enough???? If I say "I believe in Jesus" a thousand times a day, does that make me saved??? Being saved is so open to interpretation, but I don't think any American at least has the right to say they are saved. We live a life that is thousands of times richer and more sinful I think then the sick and starving children in Africa. I say none of us has repented, because if you truly repented, you would make yourself poor and give to all the kids in Africa, and spend 80-90% of your awake time spreading the gospel instead of wasting it playing video games, etc.

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Thats it I'm done. I guess we will all find out if God is supreme evil won't we...........

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I understand your desire to serve God, and how you view that as conflicting with your video games. What I suggest is, if you do want to still play computer games, just set aside an hour and mark that as your game time. Kind of as your 'me' time. I have done that on occasions, I'm single however so sometimes I'll play much longer, but then I won't play at all for weeks. But computer games don't waist your time, ultimately blaming the game sounds counter productive.

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How is lesuire time sinful? I'm sorry you have to explain this one to me. In the scriptures, I believe its in Romans, where Pual commends us to do ALL things to the glory of God, and then later on he says do not sin merely because we are saved. I take sin to be something more than enjoying something that society views as a waist of time. For example, there a societal sins, and then there are sins which seem to be against God himself. Petty theft sometimes falls into this cateogry because of the seven things God hates. But no where do video games qualify as a sin as far as I can see.

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I say none of us has repented, because if you truly repented, you would make yourself poor and give to all the kids in Africa, and spend 80-90% of your awake time spreading the gospel instead of wasting it playing video games, etc.

Very true. I remember my local priest talked about a story from the Bible in his homily where a woman went to donate the two coins she had to charity. He said she is a better person than Bill Gates, who has donated so much money to charity, because she gave up all she had and Mr. Gates still has a nice stack of money.

We are human. We are not perfect. We must strive to be perfect as the woman in the story, even though we will never achieve perfection on this Earth. Does that mean that if you don't give everything you own to the poor that you'll end up in Hell? I don't think so, otherwise Heaven would be a very empty place. I'm fairly certain it is not a sin to not give to charity, however, giving to charity is a wonderful thing.

"I have lived for 26 years and I have never once had a nightmare with some kind of horned deamon or felt "Satin's presence" or any of that nonsense."

Satan is present all around us. Any time you've been tempted to do the wrong thing (and don't tell me you haven't) Satan was there. Satan manifests himself in the temptation of sin. He tries to get you to take the easy and sinful path. That doesn't mean that whenever you see your brother's birthday cake sitting on the table with nobody around that a horned beast is going to pop up next to you, it means Satan is the one saying in the back of your mind, go ahead, take a slice. The Devil manipulates, he does not interfere in our lives directly. For example, go look at Genesis where he gets Eve to eat the apple, or when he tempts Jesus in the desert.

"Now, lets look at the 20 year old Hindu boy. The boy lives a good life that puts are American lives to shame. He gives to the poor, is completely unselfish, etc. But hey, he dies without knowing Jesus, because nonone told him. So he is screwed now forever????"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance

What this article means is that if someone did something without knowing it was wrong, they are not punished for it. If this boy had never even heard of Christianity by the time he died, I think he's excused.

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What this article means is that if someone did something without knowing it was wrong, they are not punished for it. If this boy had never even heard of Christianity by the time he died, I think he's excused.

I think he would be in Limbo/Purgatory with the opportunity to move on to Heaven.

Satan is present all around us. Any time you've been tempted to do the wrong thing (and don't tell me you haven't) Satan was there. Satan manifests himself in the temptation of sin. He tries to get you to take the easy and sinful path. That doesn't mean that whenever you see your brother's birthday cake sitting on the table with nobody around that a horned beast is going to pop up next to you, it means Satan is the one saying in the back of your mind, go ahead, take a slice.

Satan's impact touches everyone in the sense of desires/temptations. A hot girl walks by and most men will look. Even if you don't intend to look or will never do anything (ex: happily married). You do it without thinking and succumb to those built-in lustful desires. As long as you're sorry, feel guilt, and don't give in to those temptations then your okay. Some of these built-in morals are there from birth while the rest is from your life.

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By Jythier on Trust me, I'm an accountant!

I'm an accountant also. I guess that means I know everything too, right? NOT! Computer and video games are not bad unless they have excessive violence, (blood is everywhere and you get points for slatering), or pornography. I don't play any games rated mature.

The same thing goes for movies, for me, I don't wath rated R movies and there are a lot of dumb pg-13 movies out there that don't have any plot what so ever. They just show off as much skin as possible and swear up a storm. I believe that what harms children will harm adults. A person is always a person. We don't mutate into another creature magicaly when we reach adulthood.

If people feel guilty for playing GalCiv2 and a bunch of other great games and believe mankind is evil becuase everyone isn't in Africa then go ahead and sell your house and everything you own and go to Africa and I'm sure your have a wonderful time.

The family is what should be our most important "possession", if you will, and the problems in societies across the globe are a result of the destruction of familiies. God has defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman. No court, senate, or government body can change the decrees of God. Civilizations can only break themselves against them.

It seems that many people enter into marriage poised to flee at the first sign of inconvience. I believe that divorce is only necessary and warranted when abuse or any situation is going on that will destroy a person's self worth. The roots of all problems in marriages are from at least one spouse being selfish. When married couples go out of their way to be kind and don't keep a talley of who did the dishes yesterday and who took out the trash last week but instead truly love eachother, then you have a marrage. Love is an action not a feeling. It has been said that when children see their father's perform acts of kindness to their mother's and know that their father's truly love their mother's that nothihng will be of more benefit for those children.

If you want to have a tizzy fit about computer games, fine, go on a crusade. I grew up playing video games with my Dad and other family members. If children feel a need to play computer games all day that should be a signal that they are missing something; like quality time with their parents.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

Also, why does Satin even exist?

Well, if I understand correctly, he's a fallen angel. I'm not totally clear on this, but apparently angels were given a limited form of free will, just as humans were given free will. The precise origin of satan is not clearly stated in the Bible, nor is the precise cause of satan's fall given.

Why does God allow Satin to exist and corrupt us anyway?

This usually boils down to the free will issue: Apparently God doesn't want to force us to do anything, so he allowed this to happen so we all have the ability to choose our destiny.

I have lived for 26 years and I have never once had a nightmare with some kind of horned deamon or felt "Satin's presence" or any of that nonsense.

"Horned demon" is false anyways. Like all spiritual beings, satan actually has no physical form.

Where do you get this nightmare stuff? You're just going farther and farther from what we really believe into more stereotypes. You haven't the faintest clue what we're about.

You can apparently live for 80 years and torture and rape women every day of your life, and be a person that makes Hitler look like a carebear. Then when you turn 80, you suddenly "turn" to Jesus. Now, lets look at the 20 year old Hindu boy. The boy lives a good life that puts are American lives to shame. He gives to the poor, is completely unselfish, etc. But hey, he dies without knowing Jesus, because nonone told him. So he is screwed now forever????

So - do you believe in forgiveness? The 80 year old guy was horrible in the past, but turned his life around, and now you want to hang his life around his neck as a burden he can never remove? If you knew about the story of Saul, later called Paul, you'd already know that God is very forgiving.

As far as the hindu boy, that's a very good question, and is considered one of the harder questions of Christianity.

Even though I do not have a complete answer, consider these things:

-Revelation says that people from all nations will be in heaven, so he has some way of handling the issue.

-Christianity is very large - we have missionaries in the remotest places, even in places where there is little contact with the "civilized" world, and in places where Christianity is persecuted.

-It is believed that Jesus died for all people, not just to some narrow band of people. God's mercy is shown many times in the Bible, and many people who are not Israelites or Jews are praised for their faith.

-God need not operate with just Christians and paper books. He is, after all, believed to be omnipotent, so it's possible he could use other means to get people to know him.

-The Bible indicates that there there is indeed a subconscious understanding of it. Even if people don't have a clear idea of the gospel from a Christian, they already instinctively have an understanding of ethics. (Romans 2:14-15, 10:18)

-Many non-Israelites know about God.
--The Magi at the birth of Christ.
--Job was from the "East," indicating he was possibly not necessarily an Israelite, but he had incredible faith and knew a lot about God.
--There are other examples in the link below, as well as a better explanation of the subject.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hnohear.html

-The Bible emphasizes that it is those who push themselves away from God, those who purposefully reject him, that are in danger of going to hell. Those who haven't heard about him aren't necessarily rejecting him.

So yes, I do believe God has a way of taking care of those who may not have heard from a Christian or from the Bible, and I still believe they can go to heaven.

I could show you anecdotal evidence from thousands of real life people today who have had near death experiences

Anecdotal, indeed. Right now we have no idea what the true nature of near death experiences are, or whether people are really seeing things that are real or not. Right now, they're not much more than an interesting phenomenon.

Oh yeah, I forgot you have to "repent".

Many churches believe this, but my own church believes this is actually a form of works righteousness and rejects it. We believe that it is God who makes somebody a Christian, not their own actions. My church believes that repentance is an effect of faith, not a cause.

Honestly, it seems you maintain a willful ignorance of Christianity in order to create your idea of an "evil god." You call him evil even though you know nothing about him! And as long as you don't know anything about him, you feel free to paint your own picture of him, no matter how inaccurate that picture may be.

I'll be blunt: You don't know enough about God to be saying he is evil. You're only familiar with a bunch of whimsical stereotypes that have built up over the years and have no reflection of what we really believe. I'm a big fan of doing your homework. I like to do research. Obviously you've never researched this for yourself.

Why should I believe you if you've never done any research, if you've never taken a close look at our religion?

As long as you never do your homework, and never read the Bible for yourself to see if it truly reflects the stereotypes you have, then you are correct: This conversation is useless.

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As long as you never do your homework, and never read the Bible for yourself to see if it truly reflects the stereotypes you have, then you are correct: This conversation is useless.

I go to a Baptist Church every Sunday (although I don't know why - except that I have some friends who attend). Every Sunday it is the same blasted thing from the pastor. "Put your faith in Jesus if you want to be saved from eternal Hell". An hour long worship survice can be summarized into the above statement. It is a complete waste of time because it is the same blasted thing just said a slightly different way. I don't know, maybe baptists are wrong, because I am fairly sure they believe in the "fire and brimstone" Hell.

Look, I think about this stuff every day. I also at one time truly believed in Heaven, Hell, and in Jesus like a true Christian. But let me tell you something, I started to go nuts, because all I could think about was how everyone else is going to Hell because they don't practice their faith in Jesus. I read this book by a Mark Cahill which talked about spreading the word of God through Jesus. He opens his book scaring people about the eternal aspect of Hell, which all Christians at least agree upon: the eternal aspect of Hell, whatever Hell is.

See, the eternal aspect of Hell, irregardless of what it is, is what makes Hell so terrible. Also, what you call as people rejecting God, are simply people rejecting Christianity, because in their minds it makes absolutely no sense. I still have morals, don't rape women, steal, etc. I also believe in God. Just not the Chrisitan version of God, which I think, makes Him look evil. Look, sending a soul to eternal Hell for whatever reason is an utter abomination of sense and reason I don't care what you say. Now, sending someone to Hell for a thousand years? Sure, maybe Hitler deserves that. But 233,442,444,222,434,224,222,555,222,111,999,999,999 + years????????????????????

If my son "rejected" me his whole life, would I chain and lock him in a dark closet for the last 20 years until he died (the eternal seperation theory)??? Would I burn him alive for 20 years? (lets assume some twisted science found a way where you can burn someone, repair the skin, and then burn them again, over and over)????? If I kept my child chained and locked in the closet and told him it was too late for him to be "saved" for 20 years, and someone found out, I am sure I would be in the news as one twisted and evil mother f#@$##$.

It is impossible to comprehend what eternity really means. I mean an eternity of playing galciv 2 DA with no breaks would be absolute Hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But eternal seperation from God???? So you float around in blackness forever and ever??????????????

I mean, I would feel so sorry for Adolf Hitler if he had to spend an eternity playing galciv 2 DA. An eternity of any one thing with no change would be infinite evil because it is infinite. Adolf Hitler doesn't deserve an eternity of Hell. If you say he does, then I say it makes complete sense for you to kill your child if he can't tie his shoes fast enough (oh but I told him he can beg forgiveness in my dead grandfather's name!!!!!) It makes sense to punish one case of rape with 80 years of utter torture. It makes sense to burn someone alive if they took your set of markers. Afterall, you are just following God's example. Punish finite acts with infintie punishment!!!!!!!! (of course it is impossible for us humans to punish with infinite punishment)

Anyway, in Mark Cahill's book, as supporting evidence, he used a near death experience of someone who supposedly saw a fire and brimstone Hell to support his argument for Christianity. Curious, I decided to look up some info on near death experiences to see if thousands of people had seen Hell when they had a near miss with death. To my amazement, the stories people tell from near death experiences show God to be loving and caring. A just God who will punish you appropriately but not with an eternity of anything. One form of punishment may actually be reincarnation as a sick child in Africa!!!

Free will? Man I hate free will!!!!! I liken free will to putting a baby on the grand canyon. One wrong move and the baby falls to its death. We are like infants. We don't know what happens when we die, only what other people tell us happens when we die. And if I choose the wrong path? If I make some bad choices but am an atheist? To Hell I go!!!!! I am like the baby who has fallen. As a parent, would you allow your infant "free will" to crawl at the top of the grand canyon where the baby might fall???? Why does God allow us free will, allows Satin to exist so he can tempt the hell out of us??? So we can just fall into utter ruin??? Why doesn't God just snuff Satin out of existence right now and tell us himself what to do so their is no room for doubt?????

Maybe I don't know all the details of Christianity or what exactly Christians believe. But one thing I am fairly sure of is Chrisitans believe in an infinite Hell. And I just don't see how an infinite Hell makes God out to be anything but a monster. I just don't see how an infinte Hell isn't an utter abomination of sense and reason.

Also, you should do your research on near death experiences before you cricize them!!! As long as you never do your homework in finding out what very early Chrisitans believed in and looking at all the evidence, you are right, this conversation is useless!!!! Your refusal to look at other evidence (near death experiences - which you believe are a bad form of evidence) is likened to my refusal to read the bible, which I think is a TERRIBLE piece of evidence!! God's word??? Why are their multiple versions??? Why is their a Koran also??? Is it possible that man crafted the bible in the over 2,000 years since its inception to create an utter abomination of the truth?? No, thats impossible right!!! No countries or priests would dare change the bible to gain control of the idiot masses right???

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How about we make a deal??? You attend other services like go to a Hindu service, go to a Jewish service, spend time reading about near death experiences, and I read the bible front cover to back. Oh what?? You can't follow this deal? Why not??

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Satan is present all around us. Any time you've been tempted to do the wrong thing (and don't tell me you haven't) Satan was there. Satan manifests himself in the temptation of sin. He tries to get you to take the easy and sinful path. That doesn't mean that whenever you see your brother's birthday cake sitting on the table with nobody around that a horned beast is going to pop up next to you, it means Satan is the one saying in the back of your mind, go ahead, take a slice.

Satan's impact touches everyone in the sense of desires/temptations. A hot girl walks by and most men will look. Even if you don't intend to look or will never do anything (ex: happily married). You do it without thinking and succumb to those built-in lustful desires. As long as you're sorry, feel guilt, and don't give in to those temptations then your okay. Some of these built-in morals are there from birth while the rest is from your life.

This is one of my main problems with Christianity. It allows people to just blame their desires, weaknesses, and personal shortcomings on some mythical boogieman.

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This is one of my main problems with Christianity. It allows people to just blame their desires, weaknesses, and personal shortcomings on some mythical boogieman.

Amen!!! The fault is our own, no one elses!

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

I go to a Baptist Church every Sunday

Do you think Baptists have a good idea of what the Bible teaches?

Did they have Bible studies that go into depth about what they teach? Do they take a look at the original Hebrew/Greek during their studies? The Bible is a translation, you know.

Look, I think about this stuff every day.

Not very deeply, it appears. And it appears you've ignored my primary argument: People send themselves to hell, God doesn't.

In addition, you're building up quite an emotional argument. You don't like it, therefore it's evil.

I read this book by a Mark Cahill

I don't know this person, and from the sounds of it, I don't like his theology anyways. I wouldn't say he's a good representative of our religion.

Free will? Man I hate free will!!!!!

All it means is you can make your own decisions. If you want to be somebody's slave and have somebody else make all of your decisions for you, then I guess Christianity is the wrong religion for you.

Why doesn't God just snuff Satin out of existence right now and tell us himself what to do so their is no room for doubt?????

If there's no doubt, then there's no choice. Besides - would you really believe him if he did such a thing? What about other people? How convincing would this really be?

Why are their multiple versions???

There are multiple translations. The Greek and Hebrew are the same.

Why is their a Koran also???

There's nothing preventing people from writing their own books.

Is it possible that man crafted the bible in the over 2,000 years since its inception to create an utter abomination of the truth??

Sounds like your Baptist friends and the book author Mark Cahill have done such a thing.

I'm not Baptist, so I'm going to disagree with them on a lot of stuff. Same with Mark Cahill: Just because he claims to be a Christian and wrote something doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it.

If you say he does, then I say it makes complete sense for you to kill your child if he can't tie his shoes fast enough

Actually, if you want to be accurate, the child kills himself because he can't tie his shoes fast enough.

Here's an interesting quote from Glenn Miller's article:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gutripper.html

Eleventh, as a predictive model, this view of God's character fails rather significantly.

In other words, IF we construct a model of God's character as being sadistic and/or sycophantic, then our creaturely experience should reflect this. And, although there are aspects of our experience that might be understood to provide evidence for this (e.g., predation in nature? Natural evil?), the fact that our human lives are a mixture of pleasure and pain, with substantial amounts of pleasure counts quite heavily against this model.

Decades ago, a lawyer wrote:
'[If God were a sadist], He could give us infinitely more pain than we do suffer. He could force us to eat as the drug addict is forced to the use of his drug, by the pain of abstention instead of by the pleasing urge of healthy hunger. All physical functions could be forced by pain instead of invited by pleasure...If God were indifferent, why the variety of fruit flavors for the palate, the invariably harmonizing riot of colors in flower and sunset, the tang of salt air and power to vibrate in joy to these things?...If God loves His creatures all is explained, except death, pain, and sorrow, and these things would indeed present, as they do present to all but believers, an insoluble problem. But the Bible's explanation is clear as crystal: 'Death came by sin,' and the glorious end is as succinctly put as the explanation, 'And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes.'" [Irwin H. Linton, A Lawyer Examines the Bible, Wilde:1943, p.31., cited in Dave Hunt's In Defense of the Faith, Harvest House:1996, p.231]
A cruel or even mildly cruel God would simply be more likely to produce human violence as the majority cause of death (for example), instead of being a radical minority in our experience. Not only would the bodily appetites be driven by pain (as the lawyer conjectured above), but they could all be accompanied by pain in their exercise. No, the vast good and pleasures we people experience virtually everyday and virtually everywhere count strongly against any low-view models of God's character.

[It might be worth pointing out here we would not even 'bemoan' our free-will, if God were truly manipulative; there simply wouldn't be any...]

Glenn Miller's article is very long and multi-part. Here's another part that may be of interest:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part2.html

Interestingly enough, you switch the image of hell from being a "fire and brimstone" image to a "doing the same thing over and over again for eternity" image - who is to say your new image is accurate? Who is to say you do the same thing over and over again in hell?

I think a better image of heaven/hell is one of a kingdom (a common illustration in the Bible): God creates a new kingdom, and invites everybody in. Inside the kingdom is much rejoicing and happiness, because the King is wise and just. Outside the kingdom, the King has no control. There is much crime and lawlessness outside, because the King is not there.

So, you are saying that the King should kill everybody outside just because they make themselves miserable? If that were to happen here on Earth, the King would be accused of genocide, and would indeed be accused of being evil! Seems like he can't win either way, eh?

You attend other services like go to a Hindu service, go to a Jewish service, spend time reading about near death experiences, and I read the bible front cover to back.

If you tell me which religion (or philosophy) you are, I'd be glad to study it so I have a good idea where you stand.

I've read a bit about near death experiences (I'll abbreviate it NDEs), actually. I found an interesting website where a person believes that dreams are actually a non-physical soul leaving the body, and it's connected to the body through some sort of "cord." The person also believes that there's only one place a soul goes to, and that in this place there's a center of goodness, and that all of the evil people are simply further away from this center, but can't go very near because it will destroy them. Earth is a place where they can improve themselves to get nearer to this center. This person claims to have studied many dreams and NDEs.

Is this similar to your own beliefs about NDEs? If not, then what do you believe?

Amen!!! The fault is our own, no one elses!

I agree!

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All it means is you can make your own decisions. If you want to be somebody's slave and have somebody else make all of your decisions for you, then I guess Christianity is the wrong religion for you.

Actually, given that Christianity is all about faith, not questioning things, and serving the divine, I think it is the perfect religion for one who wants their decisions made for them.

I tried looking at those christian think tank links yesterday, I couldn't continue when the responder started in with the "it is not our place to question" and "god is good because as the supreme being he decides what is good" tripe.

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Why are their multiple versions???

There are multiple translations. The Greek and Hebrew are the same.

Actually, you are both right. There are multiple translation of multiple versions, of the anthology that is the bible...which, contrary to popular belief, was written independently by multiple human authors, and later assembled by the church. Oh, also, a lot of it was written before punctuation had been fully developed.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

There are multiple translation of multiple versions, of the anthology that is the bible

From what I understand, the different "versions" of the Greek/Hebrew are actually largely the same, with only a few minor differences. In nearly all cases, it's an easily fixable error that does not change the meaning, like a spelling error.

There are no known cases in the Greek and Hebrew where the error is something that would fundamentally change the meaning of the text and have a large impact on our beliefs.

which, contrary to popular belief, was written independently by multiple human authors, and later assembled by the church.

Odd, I haven't heard otherwise. Sure, we believe that God helped them, but we do not deny that different people wrote the Bible.

Oh, also, a lot of it was written before punctuation had been fully developed.

I'll be sure to add that to a "Bible Trivia" game.

BTW, a history of the Bible can be found here:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.html

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Perhaps Earth is "Hell" and all good people are angels, there are way to many sick things going on here to be created by a "Good God". I believe only in a supreme being with unimaginable power, not a good or evil one. Who are we to judge something we know so little about? As a matter of fact who am I to suggest my theory when i have not met this god? We have no right as small insignificant beings to attempt to record and write about events we have no knowledge of or that cannot be proven real. Humans will always be ignorant and that includes me. If you think of it on a cosmic scale we are nothing.

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