Nearly everyone is thinking about themselves or "issues" they care about. Funny, that's common prejudice about US Americans in Europe... Europeans travel to other European countries which is akin to Americans traveling to other states. I don't think it is. Visit Norway, Romania and then Spain to get an impression. Does Europe still make anything? According to Wikipedia, the EU's GDP was higher than the US' in 2005. (Granted - EU population is higher as well, thus GDP per capita is lower.) Germany alone is the largest exporter of goods in the world. Sounds like there are interesting products after all.

Where to start..

Europeans have a lot of opinions. I provided evidence to support my opinion (or at least a rationale). What is the European rationale for thinking that individual Americans only think of themselves?  Americans individually give far more time to charity, volunteer far more time to ohters. Heck, they give a lot more blood than Europeans. 

What do you think is the European cause for not reproducing? YOu don't think it could just possibly be because Europeans don't want to spend time and effort on other things other than their personal enjoyment of life? Do you have an alternative explaination?

My statement about visiting different states wasn't meant to imply that one US state is as similar to another as visiting different countries in Europe. My point was that from a distance point of view, it's almost unavoidable in Europe to "travel to other countries".  But it does'nt make Europeans more worldly. It makes them more insular about Europe.  If Americans are guilty of thinking America is the world (and they are guilty of this) it's no less true to say that Europeans think Europe is the world. The difference is that Europeans are arrogant enough to actually count visiting each other within Europe as a measure of said worldliness.

Germany is not the world's largest exporter.  More to the point, Germany gets to count sales to France and UK and Poland and Italy as "exports" which really distorts the reality. Again I'll get to the main point: How much stuff is Europe exporting outside of Europe? 

Your response represents a typical European attitude on the matter -- Europe is a single entity for the purposes of your argument -- when you count GDP. But when it suits you, you'll switch to individual countries (like Germany's large amount of "exports").

A question of how much money to transfer from one person to another isn't diversity IMO.

Well, then it's not diversity for you. Nonetheless there are a lot of different opinions from the far left to the far right - and the political parties that represent them.

What is the European rationale for thinking that individual Americans only think of themselves?

I called it a prejudice myself, why should I defend it?

My statement about visiting different states wasn't meant to imply that one US state is as similar to another as visiting different countries in Europe. My point was that from a distance point of view, it's almost unavoidable in Europe to "travel to other countries".

In my opinion, travelling isn't about "counting miles" (like you indicated in caps further above), the more important aspect is how much cultural diversity you'll get to see. And yes, I think that Europe has more cultural diversity to offer than the US. Comparing apples and oranges perhaps, but I think that e.g. going from Chicago to Miami can't be compared to going from Narvik to Athens.

Your response represents a typical European attitude on the matter -- Europe is a single entity for the purposes of your argument -- when you count GDP. But when it suits you, you'll switch to individual countries (like Germany's large amount of "exports").

I switched because I didn't have the figures for the EU ready, maybe I should have made that clearer. Thanks for putting me in the box with all "typical Europeans" for a few statements though.

My point wasn't to prove how great the EU or Germany is anyway. I just wanted to point out that your statement

Does Europe still make anything?

was nothing more than polemics in my opinion.

I'm trying to think of a product, good, or service that I own that is European in manufacture or thought.

Nokia phones! That's it. Yup. Can't think of anything else.

Ooh, chocolates!

Bratwurst? Well, most of it's made in the US these days, even if it is German in invention . . .

Hmm . . . drawing blanks.

European exports are higher. This is a fact.

According to Wikipedia, the EU's GDP was higher than the US' in 2005. (Granted - EU population is higher as well, thus GDP per capita is lower.) Germany alone is the largest exporter of goods in the world. Sounds like there are interesting products after all.

The Funny thing about that is, it is subjective.  I had a debate with a co-worker back in 03.  I also argued the EU was bigger.  Yet I could and did find sources that said both ways (smaller and bigger). Since Wikipedia is editable by anyone, it cannot be used as an authoratative source.  Although I do beleive that in the short term the EU does have the potential to be bigger as we are not annexing Canada and mexico to grow our economy.

I switched because I didn't have the figures for the EU ready, maybe I should have made that clearer. Thanks for putting me in the box with all "typical Europeans" for a few statements though. My point wasn't to prove how great the EU or Germany is anyway. I just wanted to point out that your statement

Sorry. Prejudice on my part. I get into these kinds of debates with Europeans so often it's hard not to assume the next one is going to be the same thing.

What I usually end up dealing with in debates are people cherry picking statistics between europe and individual countries based on what helps their argument.

As for asking what Europe makes, I was serious. What things does Europe make and export? You said its GDP is bigger than the US's. And it is indeed. So, what is Europe making these days that people use? I'm sure there's a long list of incidentals (France and Germany have some large drug companies for instance). But my point is that Europe's impact on the world seems to be decreasing by the year.

Let me give you an example that hits closer to home:

In the last GUI Championships, there were 0 finalists from Europe. 0. USA, China, Russia, heck Brazil and elsewhere were represented. But not one European.  Europeans make up 38% of the users of the stuff created by these people but produced 0% of the content.  

From the outside, Europe just comes across as the ultimate consumer. Living off of past efforts and past industriousness and just counting down the clock.

To me, this debate (if you can call it that) seems pointless. Just a bunch of stubborn Americans arguing with a bunch of stubborn Europeans.

Americans are willing to believe the most far out facts about Europe e.g. Europe is being taken over by Muslims, Europe has no religion etc. Most of the facts are spread by scared right wing bloggers, they fly around, they are added to and before you know it they become 'fact'.

Europeans are willing to believe the stereotypes about Americans, e.g. they are all religious extremists (End Timers etc) or they want to enslave the world etc.

Having lived in several EU countries and a few US states I can say that bickering between Europe and America is pitiful because it is based on fear and loathing not real facts.

I know that there are hot topics in the US like the list you presented. But are most of them really that close in the surveys (<10% difference)? Wouldn't it be safe to say that the average US american thinks that "Guns are good. Death penalty is good. The UN sucks. Peace through force. USA above all."? (As you said, not 100%, but a majority of let's say 55%/60%+)

Yes, it's really very close.  Nearly a majority think guns are a good thing and Nearly a majority would like to see a lot more gun control.  A majority of Americans think the death penalty is good but a large minority think it's bad. A majority of Americans like the UN overall but a large minority think it sucks. It's pretty even on whether we're better off with Peace through strength (not force) vs. peace through diplomacy.

By contrast, Europeans (usually proudly) claim there is a "consensus" on these issues. There isn't any such consensus on these issues here.

I guess this example was too specific. E.g. Germany has the fourth largest software corporation, SAP (granted, with three US corps at the top).

It's more than that though.  You pointed out that Europe, as a whole, has a larger GDP. My response to that is that thad GDP is mostly about providing services -- to each other and that they don't actually make stuff that really goes outside its borders.

You say SAP is the 4th largest software company.  Sure. But 13 of the top 15 are American. Why is that?

Europe only has 1 of the top 5 largest auto companies and shares another with the US (Daimler Chrysler). Why is that?

I could walk through every major industry that involves producing things that the modern world universally uses and you would be hard pressed to find an industry that Europe leads in. Why is that?

I genuinely am interested in knowing. It's like Europe, having gotten tired of murdering each other enmasse has taken a long collective nap and is now just waiting around to die out entirely.

I'll stick to Germany because that's where I know things better: Engineering (Siemens, MAN and many of smaller size), chemical industry (BASF), pharmaceutics (Bayer), cars (Volkswagen, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche), telecommunication (isn't T-Mobile active in the US by now?), finance (Deutsche Bank), logistics (Deutsche Post through DHL). The CIA World Factbook states "among the world's largest and most technologically advanced producers of iron, steel, coal, cement, chemicals, machinery, vehicles, machine tools, electronics, food and beverages, shipbuilding, textiles".

(with regard to what is being exported)

Okay. That is good. I did mention luxury cars but okay: Bayer - 13th largest drug company despite having a century+ head start. Germany does great luxury cars. But that's a very niche market. Siemens is indeed impressive. Same with BASF.  And same for T-mobile. 

But it's still not a very impressive list overall. Do you disagree? That is, Germany is the most successful continental European country. You'd think it would be relatively easy to pump out dozens of companies that make things that are ubiquitous.

If you were to add in say France and Italy and Spain, do you think the list would scale up impressively?

Let me put it another way. If an alien anthropogist were studying different cultures, what do you think they'd make of the continent of Europe? A group of nation states that had a massive lead over the rest of the world 200 years ago but today leads in virtually no major industry.  Even BASF, which is impressive, isn't the leading chemical company anymore. When it started, how many chemical companies were there? The US was fighting a civil war.

In industry after industry, Europe either had a head start because the indusries already existed or they never even got really into the game. The newer the industry, the worse Europe seems to do.

I'm not trying to bash Europe. I am trying to understand. It's a continent that once absolutely dominated the world that today can't be bothered to produce most of the things they use and now can't be bothered to even reproduce.

 

Uh Brad...you may want to check this against the #40 reply. Last I knew Germany was "part" of Europe. And as far as I can tell everything he wrote about German exports is spot on.

Uh John...where did I imply otherwise?

I asked him for a list of things that is being exported. He gave a list of things from Germany (in #38 -- I deleted 2 duplicate posts). I'm fine with that. I responded in #41.  Why are you suggesting that I'm disregarding his list when I hadn't even responded to it when you responded?

youtube.com/watch?v=dROAOxkMTtk

"How many products and goods and services can really say they're European?"

The same could be said of the United States. That is if you've shopped at Walmart lately, and bothered to look at a label with the prefix MADE IN ...

What trends are Europe at the forefront of?

Fashion, ecological maintenance of the planet, safe and effective nuclear energy providing the bulk of their energy resources, light rail.

Just off the top of my head. Of course none of these are important to the world.

"Nation states or collections of nation states influence the world either through cultural power, economic power, or mlitary power. Does Europe really have any of these things anymore? I'll grant it has cultural power in the form of inertia and in the form that the United States exerts cultural power that was based on European principles (that Europe has largely long since abandoned)."

Would you not say that most of the time when America is successful in the world the aims and goals of American policy are economic stability in focus, and promoting peace in the world? I'd have to say that we do both of those things on a much more ideological scale then Europe. Maybe most Europeans are content to let the rest of the world live how they want to live.

Could you define what European cultural principals that they have long since abandoned? I'm curious as to what you mean there.

"Europeans have a lot of opinions. I provided evidence to support my opinion (or at least a rationale). What is the European rationale for thinking that individual Americans only think of themselves? Americans individually give far more time to charity, volunteer far more time to ohters. Heck, they give a lot more blood than Europeans."

I think the European concept isn't that Americans aren't generous, but they think that we aren't as generous to the the rest of the world as we are neighborly to each other as Americans. Also I think that the reality between being European and American is different, since European governments deal daily with the foreign governments, and must cooperate, that this is reported in the media much more often, rather then in the United States, where we can choose between working with another nation or going alone, since we have the power to do so in many cases.

"Like Cacto mentions, the question isn't whether Europe is dying. The question is whether Europe's native culture is strong enough to turn the Islamic immigrants into cultural Europeans fast enough to stave off the death of Europe as we know it. And what I think will happen is that in 100 years from now Europea will be largely Islamic instead of Secular."

Yeah? Demographics are only accurate the moment they were collected, and considering that things change in a dynamic setting, of which the world is, that is to be expected. Why is the culture of Europe being changed necessarily a bad thing? Has our culture in the United States not benefited consistently from growing and melding? Hasn't the diversity increased and with increased diversity made it a more enriched place to be?

"Germany is not the world's largest exporter. More to the point, Germany gets to count sales to France and UK and Poland and Italy as "exports" which really distorts the reality. Again I'll get to the main point: How much stuff is Europe exporting outside of Europe?

Your response represents a typical European attitude on the matter -- Europe is a single entity for the purposes of your argument -- when you count GDP"

So how about some stats on the exports from the EU as a whole to the outside of Europe community? I'm sure you have those somewhere Brad no?

"Having lived in several EU countries and a few US states I can say that bickering between Europe and America is pitiful because it is based on fear and loathing not real facts."

Seems to be a common theme among many different discussions on facts and perceived facts.

One thing about Germany and Siemens in specifics, we do a fair bit of work that is outsourced from Siemens to America and then sent back to Siemens, and sold back to American hospitals.

That work under the wholesale cost, isn't counted in an export figure nor should it be, the materials are taxed of course as is the labor, but the product as sold final cost, retail, thats where the export cost is. As you probably know, a lot of manufacturing jobs, meaning a lot of manufacturing work, has gone to Mexico, Canada, as well as Europe. Why Europe? Because European manufacturing standards, ISO and such, generally set the bar along with Japan, in the world.

American companies make lots of things, as do Europeans, but a lot of the middle class income type jobs, have gone to Europe because they can be performed there, for less, beyond that from there they are again moved to China, which has the greatest quantity of available cheap labor, once standards rise in China, which is inevitable, a lot of the dynamics of that 'workload' shift will be shifted back up the chain of moving jobs, so America will bleed them off slower, or even create them, as well as places like Germany.

Germany is also a very highly skilled workforce in the scientific communities, as has been true for a long time. Certainly per capita investment in science education, and patents, and skills, and nobel prizes and such belong to Germany. Europe as a whole, offers plenty of necessary goods to the world market. To suggest irrelevance, is pretty meek.

"To me, this debate (if you can call it that) seems pointless. Just a bunch of stubborn Americans arguing with a bunch of stubborn Europeans."

Agree, but nobody would have it any other way, except the Muslims who are out to get us all right? !

"If an alien anthropogist were studying different cultures, what do you think they'd make of the continent of Europe? A group of nation states that had a massive lead over the rest of the world 200 years ago but today leads in virtually no major industry."

They'd conclude that Europeans are very advanced considering they've survived 2 world wars which were largely fought right in the middle of the civilian population each time. Since such time they've led the world in clean energy, and keeping incomes level so as to not provide basis for social injustices, yet still provide incentive for innovation that helps everybody, while also leading the world in promoting peace and working non violently to compromise keep their people safe.

If it was an Alien Anthropologist from the "galactic America", he'd say Europeans are stupid, and wimps, and don't drive big enough cars, so they must have no redeeming values.

"Europe IS slowly being taken over by Muslims."

I love this, how many politicians in Europe are Muslim, I'll give you the whole EU. What's the rate of growth?

"I see it all coming together. There is a vortex over Jerusalem and it is rapidly growing in intensity as we move forward to what I believe is the last chapter of this age. "

Yup, and pretty soon the Earth is going to suck so bad, into itself that we'll be inside out.

"What we are seeing, like a plug being pulled from the sink, is how all the nations are getting sucked toward the center like water rushing down the drain. What we are seeing right before our eyes is this circular motion drawing evil and wicked men and nations toward Israel."

Yeah close enough.

"Many are watching a man named Javier Solona out of Spain. I'd keep an eye on him if I were you. Do your research. If you know anything of biblical prophecy...this man will make your hair turn white."

You do that for us KFC.

Back to European and American interdependence, the world economy is completely connected, which is why when stocks are up here they are up over there, when the economy is spinning well in one part of the world it is likely spinning well in another. The economy is a big circle of spend, make, sell, buy ; buy = spend. There isn't anything that is going to stop that, not Islam, not the end of the world, unless you truly believe anything man can do, or supernatural I guess, short of nuclear weapons employment can stop anything dynamic on the Earth. In other words, you have about as much chance stopping this economic wheel, as you do of stopping electrons from orbiting atoms.

The fact that oil and water dont mix, and baking soda and vinegar do, doesn't ever change. Neither do the non-dynamic forces that govern this existence. Things that are moving and changing will continue to do so. Things that never move won't.

"Will Europe be forced to don the hijab and accept their status as Dhimmi under the approaching New Caliphate? Is it possible that this could force a return to European fascism and nationalism as a counter?"

Only if you give into irrational fears, slip into a deep and dreary world, in a small 6x10 cell and nobody gives you your medication at the asylum while you are bound in your straight jacket of hypocrisy and shame.