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Israel - Enemy of the World

EmperorofIceCream

Join Date 09/2004

Israel - Enemy of the World

Or, the enemy of peace is not Hamas or Hezbollah - it's Israel

There's a useful history of terrorst strikes against America and her interests in the copy of Human Events for the week of July 31st 2006. (Link)

I won't force those suffering from an aversion to Ann Coulter to read the article - these are the relevant details - but technically speaking this is not an actual quote. I've edited what she has to say in the interest of what I have to say; but I'm very happy to give the Diva of the Right full credit for everything enclosed in quotation marks.

"November 1979: Muslim extremists (Iranian variety) seized the U.S. embassy in Iran and held 52 American hostages for 444 days.

-- 1982: Muslim extremists (mostly Hezbollah) began a nearly decade-long habit of taking Americans and Europeans hostage in Lebanon, killing William Buckley and holding Terry Anderson for 6 1/2 years.

-- April 1983: Muslim extremists (Islamic Jihad or possibly Hezbollah) bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 16 Americans.

-- October 1983: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) blew up the U.S. Marine barracks at the Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines.

-- December 1983: Muslim extremists (al-Dawa) blew up the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing five and injuring 80.

-- September 1984: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) exploded a truck bomb at the U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut, killing 24 people, including two U.S. servicemen.

-- December 1984: Muslim extremists (probably Hezbollah) hijacked a Kuwait Airways airplane, landed in Iran and demanded the release of the 17 members of al-Dawa who had been arrested for the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing two Americans before the siege was over.

-- June 14, 1985: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) hijacked TWA Flight 847 out of Athens, diverting it to Beirut, taking the passengers hostage in return for the release of the Kuwait 17 as well as another 700 prisoners held by Israel. When their demands were not met, the Muslims shot U.S. Navy diver Robert Dean Stethem and dumped his body on the tarmac.

-- October 1985: Muslim extremists (Palestine Liberation Front backed by Libya) seized an Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro, killing 69-year-old American Leon Klinghoffer by shooting him and then tossing his body overboard.

-- December 1985: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed airports in Rome and Vienna, killing 20 people, including five Americans.

-- April 1986: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed a discotheque frequented by U.S. servicemen in West Berlin, injuring hundreds and killing two, including a U.S. soldier.

-- December 1988: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing all 259 on board and 11 on the ground.

-- February 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, possibly with involvement of friendly rival al Qaeda) set off a bomb in the basement of the World Trade Center, killing six and wounding more than 1,000.

-- Spring 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, the Sudanese Islamic Front and at least one member of Hamas) plot to blow up the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, the U.N. complex, and the FBI's lower Manhattan headquarters.

-- November 1995: Muslim extremists (possibly Iranian "Party of God") explode a car bomb at U.S. military headquarters in Saudi Arabia, killing five U.S. military servicemen.

-- June 1996: Muslim extremists (13 Saudis and a Lebanese member of Hezbollah, probably with involvement of al Qaeda) explode a truck bomb outside the Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds.

-- August 1998: Muslim extremists (al Qaeda) explode truck bombs at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 and injuring thousands.

-- October 2000: Muslim extremists (al Qaeda) blow up the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole, killing 17 U.S. sailors.

-- Sept. 11, 2001: Muslim extremists (al Qaeda) hijack commercial aircraft and fly planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania, killing nearly 3,000 Americans."

It's patently obvious that it's not Israelis carrying out these attacks - and just as patently obvious that so-callied allies such as Saudi Arabia are involved to a degree that makes them far more worthy of invasion and national dismemberment than was Iraq. But nonetheless, Israel, it's mere existence, as well as the gross political sponsorship of Israel by America, is at the root of every single one of these attacks.

When the body becomes diseased is it better to treat the symptoms, or the cause? The 'war on terror', already an apparent and open failure, looks set fair to become the equivalent of a cure for cancer that is worse than the disease itself. It breeds those willing to die, so long as they can kill a few of their enemies as they do so. At the same time it makes a mockery of those values enumerated in the Declaration of Independence - the human rights with which God endowed all people, not Americans alone.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

America... bastion of truth, justice, and freedom - except where Israel and those who resist its illegitimate and unlawful depredations are concerned. Israel is the example nonpareil both of the failure of the UN as anything other than a theatre of deceit in which the members of the Security Council strut and preen, and of the irrelevance of so-called 'international law' in the face of determined State action.

I have no love for the UN (as much a joke as its predecessor, the League of Nations) nor for international law, which I consider to be no law at all since none of it was issued by a legitimate Sovereign Power capable of enforcing it. However, much is made of the failures of Iraq and Iran to abide by the 'resolutions' of the UN Security Council - while no mention at all is made of the resolutions which Israel blithely ignores. The current sitution in Lebanon is the most flagrant, blatant and brutal breach of (in particular) Security Council Resolution 425, which reads -

"The Security Council,

1.Calls for strict respect for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized boundaries;

2. Calls upon Israel immediately to cease its military action against Lebanese territorial integrity and withdraw forthwith its forces from all Lebanese territory;

3. Decides, in the light of the request of the Government of Lebanon, to establish immediately under its authority a United Nations interim force for southern Lebanon for the purpose of confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area, the force to be composed of personnel drawn from States Members of the United Nations.

4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Council within twenty-four hours on the implementation of this resolution.

Resolution 425 was issued on 03/19/1978 (Link).

The following link leads to a list of other UN resolutions, issued between 1955 and 1992, all of which have been treated by Israel with utter disdain. (Link)

How many times, before the invasion of Iraq, was it made plain to the public that a casus belli in that ongoing debacle was Iraq's failure to comply with the resolutions of the Security Council? How many times, in the ongoing furore over Iran, has it been made plain that it is Iran's refusal to comply with the will of the 'international community', as expressed via the UN, that is one of the principal justifications for economic sanctions, and possibly even another military adventure to 'enforce' that will?

The list of resolutions breached by Israel is longer than both my arms put together. But no one mentions that fact.

The origin of every terrorist attack against the USA lies, at its root, with Israel and America's patronage of that criminal, intransigent and bloody-handed monster. For reasons that entirely escape me, America is besotted with Israel, incapable of seeing that its interests require an immediate curtailment of all military, economic and political sponsorship in order to bring Israel firmly to heel and remind the Israelis of exactly which state is the client and which the Patron.

Not until that political nettle is grasped and pulled up by the roots can there be any hope of a 'victory' in the 'war on terror'. Granted, Hamas and Hezbollah carry out the acts, acts that in themselves are no less heinous than those carried out by Israel, but the origin of the disease of political violence is not with them. It lies with the intransigent zealotry and racially motivated hatred of the Israelis - and their treacherous sympathisers here in the USA who, by working to support the interests of Israel, work directly against the interests of America and her people.

I can hear the cries of those who sympathise with Israel - but the Arabs started it all, they attacked first. That might be true had not the Jews of the day (there were no Israelis before the founding of Israel in 1949) been forced upon the region ('Palestine' did not exist until its creation as a consequence of the Paris Peace Conference of 1919) by the British in pursuit of the goals of the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which states, in part, that -

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." The failure of His Majesty's Government to fulfil that 'clear understanding' is only one testimony to the demise of Britain as a Great Power.

The land now known as 'Palestine' was expropriated at the hands of the European Great Powers of the day, constituting the first attack in the conflict between Arabs and Jews. What makes the aggression of the Jews in the Middle East even more repellant than it appears to be is the fact that, since 1934, an alternative to Jewish depradations in 'Palestine' has existed in the JAR, the Jewish Autonomous Region of the former Soviet Union, which continues in existence to this day. (Link)

Israel is an illegitimate creation of the European Great Powers of the early twentieth century, fashioned as an answer to the political needs of the day - needs long since forgotten, as relevant to today as are the dietary requirements of dinosaurs; it is equally an illegitimate creation of religious fanaticism at least as great as that of Hamas or Hezbollah. Ancient Israel was destroyed millenia ago: to say that the texts of the Bible give legitimacy to Israel's existence now is on a par with a claim that the ancient kingdoms of Wessex and Mercia ought to be revived simply because they once existed.

"... A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture. Among the Jews there is no large and stable stratum connected with the land, which would naturally rivet the nation together." (Joseph Stalin, 1913).

That remained true until the creation of 'Palestine' as a site of expropriation, and of 'Israel' as the agent of that expropriation - all done in the name of interests that are as dead as Balfour himself. The JAR remains as a viable, peaceful, successful alternative to the chaos produced by the creation of 'Israel'. And if Jews wish to live in peace, as they claim, it is to that homeland that they ought to return - willingly or not.

There is too much at stake, for America and the world, for the existence of Israel any longer to be tolerated. Its mere existence, as the illegitimate creation of regimes long since dead and turned to dust, destabilises a region crucial to the interests of many millions more than make up the population of both ancient Israel and its modern counterpart put together - and those of you who espouse the Utilitarian concept that the good of the many ought to outweigh the interests of the few should immediately begin agitating for renewed and effective control of Israel by the USA, for Israel's termination as an independent political entity, and for the return of the Jews to the only homeland they have legitimately had since the destruction of ancient Israel.

Modern Israel is a plague-spot at the heart of the Middle East. It will continue to infect the world with the violence of its presence until, like any tumour, it is excised and the contamination of its existence is cleansed and healed."

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Israel acts as a terrorist state...

This is the part of the equation I fail to comprehend. How do you equate a nation responding to violent attacks with terrorism? It just doesn't wash.

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#22 by little-whip
Sat, August 05, 2006 4:05 PM

Now..what was it the jews rule again?

capitolize that J in Jews!! ya fraggfin granfglicle poozsnating freak!

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#26 by EmperorofIceCream
Sat, August 05, 2006 8:11 PM

Those supporting Israel are, perforce, hypocrites. I dislike hypocrisy.

I support Israel, would support them against any country but america, might even support them then.

Death to towell heads!! death to rag heads!! death to white people!! come to think of it Death to everyone BUT BIG HOOKED NOSE Jews!

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To Moderateman

Death to everyone BUT BIG HOOKED NOSE Jews!

Ok. I can go along with that.

See? Now I understand all this Israeli aggression. You're all just pissed the Blacks got the big dicks and all you Jews got was huge noses.

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To: MasonM

This is the part of the equation I fail to comprehend. How do you equate a nation responding to violent attacks with terrorism? It just doesn't wash.

Look at the nature of the acts. What difference is there between killing by diktat via Gunship and killing by diktat via suicide bombers? They are the same acts: murder without recourse to justice. The fact that you're obsessed with who does what to whom rather than with what's done, and that you have decided in advance that one party is justified as defending itself while the other is to be condemned for defending itself, probably explains your difficulty in comprehension. I believe your problem is prejudice.

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#30 by EmperorofIceCream
Sat, August 05, 2006 9:58 PM

Now I understand all this Israeli aggression. You're all just pissed the Blacks got the big dicks and all you Jews got was huge noses.

well now, I am afraid I was blessed in both areas, nose and dick.

My aggression comes from little weenies that cannot begin to understand what it means to be a JEW.
No I am not going to explain it to you either.

On that note it is time for me to exit this blog before one of us say something rude and mean spirited to the other.

peace, elie

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#31 by EmperorofIceCream
Sat, August 05, 2006 10:03 PM

So you believe a nation's government has no responsibilty to defend it's citizens? I thought that was the primary function of any government.

If a group of terrorists were firing rockets into my city from Canada, I would damn well expect my government to take action to stop it.

The simple fact is terrorists deliberately target civilians which is plainly a criminal act and any government in any part of the world has a responsibility to defend it's citizens against such acts. It has nothing to do with prejudice.

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If all you are concerned about is provocation toward whatever nation you happen to be living in, why not just preach swiss miss neutrality, then? If they are all bad, why does Israel need to be the 'enemy'? They are all alike to you, right?

You have a beef with the existence of a nation wherein three generations have been born. Sorry, but that fight is over, unless you are a glassy-eyed, Jew hating terrorist with a dream. You might as well be pissy about the illegitimacy of the western US, because there's about as much chance that either will be handed back.

So, we withdraw our support for Israel. Will it matter? No, we'll still be the great satan. We'll just be the great satan without an ally in the Middle East. Carter was a milquetoast on the Middle East and it brought us grief; Reagan promoted the idea of a Palestinian state and it didn't help anything, and Clinton did everything but give Arafat a hummer and the entire time terrorists were FOCUSING their plans for attack on us, not withdrawing.

All the anti-Israel yap might sound good, but in terms of real world application I don't see how it is useful. The people who hate us would still hate us if we bombed Israel into an oblivion and handed them the rubble with a big bow on it. So we get attacked with an ally in the middle east, or we screw our strategic interests and get attacked anyway.

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Lebanon amply demonstrates.

I would include Palestine in this group.

Do you think that would be a good thing?

I do not think it is a good thing. I do not think nukes are the answer by any means. I wish they were never created. But I can crap in my other hand and I know which one will fill first. My point that I am saying is that if Hezbollah and Chamas stopped jacking with Israel there would be no conflict. But Iran and Syria can't leave them alone. Eventhough many know that Hezbollah is controlled and funded by these other countries and Lebanon is just the instigator for conflict if Israel just went straight after Syria bypassing Lebanon would not be the wisest decision to say the least. I don't think that Israel blowing up buildings in Lebanon is the ideal solution. But looking at the alternatives I'm not sure what option they had left. The UN has not been of any influence to get Hezbollah to stop. You say that Israel is violating the UN but where is the UN at protecting them from these people attacking them.

It seems that your point isn't so much to iradicate the Jews but eliminate the Jewish state of Israel? Would this be correct?

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To: MasonM

So you believe a nation's government has no responsibilty to defend it's citizens? I thought that was the primary function of any government.

How is it a defence of its people for a Government to engage in acts which instigate further attacks on them? Extra-judicial murder via Gunship; refusal to engage in dialog; refusal to negotiate with your enemies because you have 'no partner' in such negotiations; expropriation of land; the building of a wall that makes the Berlin Wall of old look like a picket fence; the targeted destruction of non-combatants houses as reprisal for something done against Israel by others; none of these are acts designed to defend anything.

Such acts instigate further violence and make it more likely that the attacks against which the IDF 'defends' the Israeli people will continue. There seems to me to be a perfectly valid argument that the Israeli people are as much at risk from the lunatic acts of their government as they are from the lunatic responses to such acts by Hamas, Hezbollah et. al.

So you believe a nation's government has no responsibilty to defend it's citizens?

I believe just the opposite of that statement. But the State of Israel is not engaged in the defence of its people. It's engaged in a systematic process to deny to those it perceives as the racial inferiors of the region (the Arabs) anything that will interfere with its expansion towards the borders possessed by Eretz Israel, and, once those borders are achieved, any status other than that of 'Dhimmi'-equivalence to the previous inhabitants of the region.

That might be considered a 'defensive' program if it actually succeeded - but as Lebanon is currently demonstrating, it's not as easy as all that. Since Israeli acts of political barbarity do nothing but fuel the fires of that same barbarity in those Israel fights against, and secures further deaths of Israeli citizens, in what sense can Israel be said to be engaged in self-defence?

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To: BakerStreet

I'm beginning to think you actually are KFC... in drag, perhaps? Nothing in what I originally posted indicates that I'm concerned for 'provocation toward whatever nation I happen to be living in'. The governments of all nations may be contemptible - but the government of Israel is more contemptible than most since it is more blatant in its will to exploit the duplicity, comlicity, and dishonesty of the rest to gain what it wants while flouting those shibboleths (such as democracy, accountability, law) that it claims it most values.

Since you haven't grasped the point I made in the article, nor from any of my replies, let me make it plain enough even for you. The Israeli State is a criminal regime, at least as dangerous to the stability of the region as was Iraq under Hussein, as is Tehran in its present ambition. It is a hypocritical regime, giving lip-service to international law and the Security Council, while flouting both with impunity - an impunity that can only be maintained by the collusion of other States - notably America and Britain.

You might as well be pissy about the illegitimacy of the western US, because there's about as much chance that either will be handed back.

No one can make America hand anything back. That's not true of Israel who could very easily be contained within its pre-1967 borders at the merest whim of the USA - a whim that won't appear however because Americans would then lose their pets in the Middle East and so no longer pat themselves on the back for having supported the 'poor Jews'. America is at least as responsible for the conflict between Israel/Hamas/Hezbollah because of its collusion in the acts of the Israeli State through the supply of weapons and political patronage/support.

So, we withdraw our support for Israel. Will it matter? No, we'll still be the great satan. We'll just be the great satan without an ally in the Middle East.

Israel is not our only possible ally in the Middle East. With a little adept politics, a little greasing of palms, and its inclusion in the 'club' of the Security Council, Tehran could very easily become a far greater ally than Israel has ever been. What control does Israel exert over the terror-networks? None. How much does Israel have in exploitable oil reserves? None. Can Israel exert anything other than a negative influence in Iraq? No. Can Tehran actively secure a reduction of terrorist activity there and contribute to Iraq's stabilization? Yes - if it had the motive to do so.

Israel is a dead hand on American policy in the region, contributing nothing, adding difficulty to an already difficult situation. It ought to be abandoned because it makes a hypocrite of America. It should be abandoned because to do will increase, over time, our political effectiveness in that region. I can see why such proposals are difficult for both you and KFC however. They require an appreciation of realpolitik that's beyond the grasp of Armageddonists and political theologians of your sort.

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"Nothing in what I originally posted indicates that I'm concerned for 'provocation toward whatever nation I happen to be living in'."

Eh...

Let them kill Hindus then. Particularly non-American Hindus. Have you somehow mistaken anything I've said for humanitarian concern?

You are going in circles, here.

You've stated that you don't give a damn about "criminal regimes" because you don't give a damn about international law. You'd happily become Ming the Merciless if you could.
You've stated that you don't give a damn how many Lebanese or Hindus or other non-American people are killed by Israel, and that's consistent with the values I am accustomed to from you. You just resent that it brings their hate on us as Israel's supporter.
You say they are "dangerous to the stability of the middle east", but who gives a shit about that? The last thing I want is a stable world for the fundamentalist wretches who live there. It can be stable when they want to live more in a way that we can all live with. Bullheaded? Well, I've studied at the Simon school of Machiavellianism.
Hypocrisy? The EoIC school of thought is all ABOUT hypocrisy, isn't it? In other words the "Everything is fine for me to do, but only because I'm me, and I don't have to feel bad about that" school of total self-centeredness and hedonism. Or have I misunderstood?

As for Tehran being our ally, that's the Jimmy Carter school of middle eastern diplomacy, and it doesn't work. They don't respect us and never will, and not because of our "love" for Israel, but because we don't beat our wives and lop off the hands of people who steal. To them we have no self-respect because we DON'T blow them to hell when they thwart us.

Your proposal is difficult because it is akin to the rest of the bleeding heart, "Awww, you only need to give them what they want and they'll be your fwend" mentality we get from peaceniks everywhere. YOU are most certainly not that kind of person, and this funky-faux "realpolitik" is just a way, frankly, of validating a totally unreasoned bias against a nation that is behaving more in line to your own personal values than you want to admit.

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To: Adventure-Dude

But looking at the alternatives I'm not sure what option they had left. The UN has not been of any influence to get Hezbollah to stop.

The UN has been of markedly little use in resolving conflict in any part of the world at any time. The principle use for UN 'peace-keepers' appears to be to have them stand idly by (as in Bosnia) and wring their hands while the warring factions get on with the business of killing each other. The UN and its Security Council alike are an irrelevance in every way - except as a theatre in which the members of the Security Council can posture, preen, and pretend to run the world.

You say that Israel is violating the UN but where is the UN at protecting them from these people attacking them.

I said nothing of the sort. I said that Israel has persistently violated every Security Council resolution in relation to its treatment of Lebanon (and demonstrated that it had done so). As to its utility in 'protecting' Israel from the attacks of others - it has none. It's only function in the world is to produce endless reams of documentation, and the rhetorical flourishes of its 'resolutions', that alike go ignored by everyone.

What's to be done? Bring Israel to heel; make strategically useful alliances with others in the region; impose a two state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem, enforced by American troops holding a similar position to those that sit between N. and S. Korea.

Or, failing those things, sit back, watch the world burn, and pay five or six (or more) dollars at the pump for a gallon of gas. Perhaps, when that situation finally occurs, and large numbers of Americans can no longer afford to drive to work, or to drive their kids to school, they will finally begin to question the value to them of their government's unrelenting support for their Jewish pets in Israel.

It seems that your point isn't so much to iradicate the Jews but eliminate the Jewish state of Israel? Would this be correct?

Yes, in essence. I don't dislike Jews as people. I simply detest the political abomination they have created, an illegitimate monster that, if it's not destroyed, must be contained.

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Yes, in essence. I don't dislike Jews as people. I simply detest the political abomination they have created, an illegitimate monster that, if it's not destroyed, must be contained.

I can understand where you are coming from now. I may not whole heartedly agree with you but I respect your view. Thanks for debating with me so that lil me can understand.

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"I don't dislike Jews as people."

Let me rephrase that. I don't dislike Jews as people any more (or any less) than I dislike every one else as people. I wouldn't want to be thought to be favoring anyone, or worse yet, be mistaken for some sort of humanitarian.

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Interesting perspective with intersting icon.

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To: BakerStreet

You are going in circles, here.

As everything you have to say after that point deals with things I haven't said, and is phrased in terms of an argument you've held with yourself and won, rather than in terms of anything I've actually proposed (other than your mention of Tehran where you again misrepresent what I did say) I'm taking no more trouble in answering you than is sufficient to tell you that I'm not going to answer you, and why.

I would no more answer you at this point than I would KFC. Neither of you debates and I'm tired of both your attempts at misdirection through obstinate repetition. As for going in circles, feel free to tell me that what I haven't said is wrong for as long as you wish.

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LOL, well, you have to protect your points in whatever way you can. I guess that is as good a way as any.

The fact is, though, you blame Israel for being illegitimate when you say you don't care about international law, and you blame them for terrorist attacks when you say you don't care who gets killed. Every time I have posted I've addressed your blog, but it's inconvenient for you to recognize that you're using arguments that you, YOURSELF have shown nothing but disdain for, even here in this very discussion.

So, pretend I am not addressing your points if it helps you. It seems obvious to me that you are adopting touchy-feely, peacenik arguments to cover an irrational dislike of Israel. This isn't arrogance, it's a total split from your stated philosophy, even that you've stated AFTER the fact. A lot of Nazis didn't hate jews, either, they were just coldly concerned with the problems that might come from their existence.

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To: BakerStreet

The fact is, though, you blame Israel for being illegitimate when you say you don't care about international law, and you blame them for terrorist attacks when you say you don't care who gets killed.

Sighs... It's my own fault for not being able to tolerate such egregious misrepresentation...

I don't 'blame' Israel for being illegitimate - or for anything else. I've said many times that I admire their ruthlessness and wish it was emulated by our own government in the USA. I condemn the hypocrisy involved in Israel's political life, and if I point to its violations of UN resolutions it's because no one else will do so.

The fact that I deny the legitimacy of international law does not prevent me from pointing out those who flout it while claiming to abide by it - and condemning their hypocrisy in doing so. If I condemn Israel for its terrorism I do so on the basis of its acts, both in Palestine and Lebanon. Acts that are dissimilar to those of the terrorists everyone condemns only in the sophistication and technological development of the weapons used to carry them out. They are no less acts of terror because carried out by the State's military arms.

Since I admire the ruthlessness involved I ought, in the interest of consistency, to respect the premise on which it's based: that of national self defence. I have never denied the Jews the right to defend themselves - I condemn them for being exactly the same as their opponents while claiming to be justified by a perpetual victimhood, and a virtue in that victmhood which is on a par with the Emperor's new clothes.

Do you need that reference explaining? Perhaps I ought to explain anyway, since not to do so will give you another chance to misrepresent me. Israel's virtue is as non-existent as the Emperor's new clothes and, just like the people in the tale, no one dares point it out - in this case for fear of being called a Jew-hater. So I'm going to point it out. Israel is an entity that has made a way of life out of hypocrisy, militant racism, and the practice of apartheid in a form at least as vicious as that of the former South Africa.

Do I consider this to be inherently wrong? No. I think it's a touchstone for the fact that Israel is everything it professes to hate, though to a lesser degree. So far as I know they've not yet built industrial-scale facilities for turning living Arabs into dead ones. Do I despise them (Jews and Israelis both) for becoming what they hate? Yes. But I despise more those who collude with the Jews in the universal myth that they are not what they hate, and I will point out the nakedness of King David at every turn.

It seems obvious to me that you are adopting touchy-feely, peacenik arguments to cover an irrational dislike of Israel. This isn't arrogance, it's a total split from your stated philosophy, even that you've stated AFTER the fact. A lot of Nazis didn't hate jews, either, they were just coldly concerned with the problems that might come from their existence.

Since I have no problem with violence applied in the name of political reality (my problem is with the canting hypocrisy of those who justify Israel's violence in the name of self-defence when it is no such thing, when it is aggression dressed in a rag of psuedo-morality fit only to be swallowed by dolts) I can hardly be called touchy-feely. Nor can I be called a Peacnik. I'm firmly of the belief that the war will shortly expand to include Syria, and Iran thereafter, and I'm looking forward to observing that conflict and its results with keen interest.

If you think that my condemnation of Israel means that I'm confused in terms of how I think about the world, you couldn't be more wrong. I have always been torn between natural justice and political reality. But, at least in theoretical terms (theoretical because I've never been called on to make such a decision in reality - and I sincerely doubt that I ever will be) I have always been willing to sacrifice natural justice to realpolitik because I'm convinced it's often necessary to do a little evil in order to forestall a greater evil.

The greater evil here is the continued existence of the political entity Israel. Removing Israel would not prevent the Jihadis from finding some other cause to wage war on the West. But it would remove one justification for that war. It would also provide an opening into the wider Arab world, and a sign of good faith, that could not be created in any other way and which would draw much of the poison from the relationship between America and the Arab/Muslim world.

BP has just shut down the largest oil-producing field in the USA - 8% of daily production lost, perhaps for months according to Fox News. It would be considerably easier to make up that shortfall if we had better relations with the Arab world. Why? Because that's where the oil is. And in case you still don't get it let me explain: Israel has no oil. No oil. No oil. Of what use to us is an 'ally' that constantly antagonizes those who ought to be our friends, and ought to be so because of the degree of use and profit we can gain from them? No use at all, and an active hindrance.

And if all it takes to qualify as a 'Nazi' is a political disinterest in others except insofar as they can be put to use then I suppose I qualify. However, I think the Nazis were rather more complicated, and rather more demanding, than that. Though I appreciate their sense of humor. Can you imagine anything more comical than walking to a pit full of starving children every morning - and throwing them handfuls of candy?

I can't.

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Removing Israel would not prevent the Jihadis from finding some other cause to wage war on the West.

This is the one statement you have made that I can agree with. Nothing will appease these Jihadists short of world-wide domination of their brand of Islam so any effort to appease them is pure insanity. They are not sane, reasonable people and can not be dealt with as such.

Most of the "crimes" of which you accuse Israel have been in direct response to the attacks of these irrational factions. The fact is you can not deal with irrational people in a rational manner. If someone is determined to exterminate me personally I am not going to try and reason with that person; I am going to do everything in my power to exterminate them or render them unable to exterminate me.

As far as I am concerned the bottom line remains that as long as these Muslim extremist terrorists exist the civilized world is at war whether they want to be or not. These people do not want peace, they want world domination of their violent brand of religion. And once they achieve that they will then make war among themselves for domination of the Sunnis or the Shiites. These people are insane, plain and simple.

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To: MasonM

If someone is determined to exterminate me personally I am not going to try and reason with that person; I am going to do everything in my power to exterminate them or render them unable to exterminate me.

How many Muslim extremists have threatened to exterminate you, Mason? In what way are they an existential threat to you? If Israel ceases to exist tomorrow how exactly will that undermine your way of life? It's rhetorical nonsense of this sort that drives all political conflict by energizing the cannon-fodder that dies on the battlefield. As someone else said: at night all cats are grey - especially political cats.

As a counterpoint to the delusional animosity and regurgitated shibboleths of Mason's post, I link these articles pointing to the real possibility of an entirely different relationship existing between the USA, Iran, and the wider Middle East - and as a counterpoint also to BakerStreet's equally bigoted and equally ill-informed rants concerning Iran.

Link

Link

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How many Muslim extremists have threatened to exterminate you, Mason? In what way are they an existential threat to you?

You resort to this sort of disingenuous argument? I did not say if a Muslim threatened me, I said if someone is determined to exterminate me personally I am not going to try and reason with that person. I did not in any way specify who that someone may be.

I'm sorry, but if you are going to resort to this sort of bullshit, I have nothing left to discuss with you as you obviously can't discuss your point of view in an honest manner.

Somehow I thought you might be a little better at debate than this.

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To: MasonM

Dear me, what a hissy fit. No, you didn't specify Muslims. Perhaps you're afraid of a fatwa? But since you said 'someone' without qualification I'm entitled to presume that you include Muslims within the general category of 'someone'. Or are you enough of a racist to deny the humanity of Muslims and so exclude them from your general category, 'someone'?

I'm sorry, but if you are going to resort to this sort of bullshit, I have nothing left to discuss with you as you obviously can't discuss your point of view in an honest manner.

By all means, take your ball and run home. Is it my fault that you're too stupid to appreciate that if you aren't specific others are at liberty to interpret you as they see fit?

Somehow I thought you might be a little better at debate than this.

Somehow, I got the impression that you really are as dense as you've proven yourself to be; your latest comment being a wonderful demonstration of the old adage - better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove that you are a fool. But I still haven't gotten used to how low my expectations must be if I'm not to be disappointed by the general standard of debate here.

Is it my fault you aren't bright enough to understand what you yourself have written? I don't think so.

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To: Adventure-Dude

Interesting perspective with intersting icon.

The icon is an image of the Baphomet, about the origin and meaning of which there is endless debate. The design of the icon is an exact replica of that found in the work of Eliphas Levi, a pseudonym of Alphonse Louis Constant. To learn more go here Link.

And go here also Link.

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Horse-fucker! Inviter of spirits! Heresiarch!

Mmm hei ho eris discordia ho hum,

Martin luther threw his own shit at the devil. We have yet only to throw words. Any of you. Throw your shit at the devil whenever you see him.

look behind you

he's there right now

g'night

pull your blankets up tight, it makes shit go better.

granny don't mind.

g'night.

g'night.

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