Korean Test Missile

Galacticus wrote:

A word to our Canadian friend, IF I was being spyed on by my government, I would have nothing to worry about

The normal guy who's life only containes eating, going to work, going to bed and playing video games in between, yeah, he probably doesn't care who is spying on him. However, on the political side the opposition party will have serious problems when the ruling party knows everthing about them due to excessive espionage. Thats what I meant with:

A state that possesses absolute control contradicts the very basics of democracy, free elections become a farce

To prevent such abuses to happen democracies create laws that impose limits on what a governmant is allowed to do. I believe any government will use the instruments it has available in order to gain power or at least to ramain on the throne. If you don't impose limits than the government will use it's freedoms to remain in power, even if it gets its hands very dirty doing so.
Take it to the extrem, look at Belarus, this country has transformed into a dictatorship in the past years, opposition is only possible in secrecy. Here the government didn't have sufficient boundaries either.

Galacticus wrote:

And yes Canada owes the US at leats a "We're with ya man" after defending them and most of Europe during both World Wars

This I keep hearing again and again. Everybody is greatful that the USA gave Nazi-Germany the final blow, we all know that by now.
But I could just as well argue that Americans should obey to all French demands, since France played a major role in the american independance war. Or I could argue that we should all obey Russia, since Russia made the largest contribution of all nations to defeat germany in WW2, the greatest losses germany suffered from Russia.
Btw: Canada didn't lay back and wait for uncle sam to defeat Germany. Canadians had many losses and sacrifices too, just like the Americans, or the british, or the russians (especially).... Go look at the table of casualties to get a idea who contributed what to WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_deaths
Its not like the USA saved the whole world on its own or something like that, sorry to disappoint you here, but live isn't a hollywood-war Film

Galacticus wrote:

All in all we are the freest nation on the planet. That is shown by our liberal media tearing at our president daily

That is nice to hear

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I was in no way demeaning the contributions of other nationsin in the world wars, now that i reread the post it does sound like that. All I m saying is that allies should support each other against common foes. Also our elections are based on the decisions of the populace. The only way a party could truly garuntee that they stay in power is by brainwashing millions of Americans.

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Not implying anything, but I know that since X year (I think it's 2002, or maybe 1998), the re-election rate for congressmen and/or senator (this is pure memory stats, so I may be off) is about 95%, because the said-elected people uses their power to influence political maps/campaign financement/public adresses.

And if I remember well, at the beggining of the Iraqi Invasion, pro-War factions within the U.S. were almost the sole speakers, anti-War peoples were silenced (except maybe Micheal Moore, but I can't say that's good for the anti-War).

One of the greatest anti-War voices in the U.S. (and World) were the French government, and we all know what happened. No one could critize the War, even if most of the reasons it was rushed were false. Now, maybe it's not pure brainwashing, but it's close to propaganda.

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Well if it is propaganda it does not work. Have you watched CNN lately, very anti-war,anti-Bush,anti-anything that has any moral value. we are far from a brainwashed society. Also France has no right to say a thing about what the US does. We arent the ones with rioters in our streets.

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There were thousands of protesters, bordering on rioting, during Bush's procession to the white house right after the first time he was elected. The major news casts chose not to show you this. Bush cannot run for another term. The power behind bush is the same as the power behind the media which is the same as the power behind Hilary Clinton. It does not matter who you vote for. The same power controls all of them. Some day y'all will understand what i am talking about and will regret calling me a conspiracy theorist. I hope I am wrong but I have studied the bush family and a lot of other powerful families that have links dating back 200 to 300 years. I have studied this for 25 years and have a lot of hard evidence. If you go to your Library of Congress archives you will find Grampa Bushes documented treason against your great country. One hell of a lot of steel was shipped to Germany by the Bush Steel mills durring WW2. Enough said for now. Check the Library of Congress website and see for yourself. There are many other things that might open your eyes to what is really happening in the world.

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El Conquest said:

The Pentagon: alright people now the orders are to shoot the missile down, aim the sites on the missile and fire the interceptors when ready...

HA! well, the missles blew up right after launch. North Korea looks dumb as shi** right now.

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In addition to biological, chemical, and nuclear WMD, there are convential WMD. The fuel-air bomb can level a town but because it is a convential weapon the political failout of using one is smaller.

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#96 Morghenes

Argument No.1: There must be balance of power between government and its citizens.
What?? Now sorry, in the USA you will achieve just nothing with a barrel. As long as you don't elect Osama as your next president the US remains a democracy, in wich you only achieve power by convincing poeple of your Ideas, participating in political parties, by campaigning, all these things you usually do in a democracy. For heaven's sakes, you're not living in Afganistan man!
Do you expect the government to suddenly beat down the citicens? Or do you want to force the president to resign by pointing a gun at his head? The correct way to fight despotism is by the good old seperation of powers. C'mon, you certainly don't need a gun to maintain ballance, I know that and you know that.

Actually, the real question boils down to - "Who is sovereign? The government or the citizen?" If you believe the government is (or should be) sovereign, then I suggest you read the Founding Fathers' publications. They disagreed. Just because they got rid of one government and instituted another, then changed that to our current form, didn't relieve them (or us) of the responsibility to watch the goverment like a hawk and maintain the ability to change it again. Fortunately the US culture has developed in a way that lessens the likelyhood of this becoming necessary, but that is not true around the world. We in the US are extremely fortunate to have institutions like the ACLU and the NRA who fiercely safeguard the rights of the individual to exercise their 1st and 2nd Amendment Rights respectively. And in the unthinkable case that the ACLU fails in it's zeal, hopefully the NRA won't.

Argument No.2:The police doesn't have the capacity to defend everyone, so the individual is responsible for his own safty.
If you had 50% less guns in the US, you maybe could get rid of the other half of the guns because you wouldn't need them anymore to defend yourself. Some people make the equation: More weapons=more security for the individual. Th number of muders in the US doesn't reflect that equation at all, in fact the us has one of the very highest murder rate in the world, by total amount and relative amount.

What I actually wrote was that the police do not have the LEGAL OBLIGATION to protect each individual. So yes, in the final analysis, the individual is responsible for his/her own safety. As far as the rest of the quote, allow me to direct your attention to Switzerland - there, virtually all men are members of the active military or of the reserves (mandatory service), and they KEEP THEIR MILITARY WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION AT HOME, just like the the Minutemen did. Check out their violent crime rates - one of the lowest around. And, again, comparing the violent crime rates between US states that have "shall issue (carry permits)" and those that don't are signficantly lower in those states which encourage LAW ABIDING citizens to own firearms.

#101 Morghenes

To prevent such abuses to happen democracies create laws that impose limits on what a governmant is allowed to do. I believe any government will use the instruments it has available in order to gain power or at least to ramain on the throne. If you don't impose limits than the government will use it's freedoms to remain in power, even if it gets its hands very dirty doing so.
Take it to the extrem, look at Belarus, this country has transformed into a dictatorship in the past years, opposition is only possible in secrecy. Here the government didn't have sufficient boundaries either.

Thank you - you make my point in #1 for me.

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#101 Morghenes
To prevent such abuses to happen democracies create laws that impose limits on what a governmant is allowed to do. I believe any government will use the instruments it has available in order to gain power or at least to ramain on the throne. If you don't impose limits than the government will use it's freedoms to remain in power, even if it gets its hands very dirty doing so.
Take it to the extrem, look at Belarus, this country has transformed into a dictatorship in the past years, opposition is only possible in secrecy. Here the government didn't have sufficient boundaries either.

They also had no real constitution. A good constitution with a system of checks and balances (executive, judicial, legislative, for example) can and does work. No system is perfect and no government ON EARTH will ever make all of it's people happy.

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There were thousands of protesters, bordering on rioting, during Bush's procession to the white house right after the first time he was elected. The major news casts chose not to show you this. Bush cannot run for another term. The power behind bush is the same as the power behind the media which is the same as the power behind Hilary Clinton. It does not matter who you vote for. The same power controls all of them. Some day y'all will understand what i am talking about and will regret calling me a conspiracy theorist. I hope I am wrong but I have studied the bush family and a lot of other powerful families that have links dating back 200 to 300 years. I have studied this for 25 years and have a lot of hard evidence. If you go to your Library of Congress archives you will find Grampa Bushes documented treason against your great country. One hell of a lot of steel was shipped to Germany by the Bush Steel mills durring WW2. Enough said for now. Check the Library of Congress website and see for yourself. There are many other things that might open your eyes to what is really happening in the world.

Conspiratorial carp. However, Bush is a tool.

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Not implying anything, but I know that since X year (I think it's 2002, or maybe 1998), the re-election rate for congressmen and/or senator (this is pure memory stats, so I may be off) is about 95%, because the said-elected people uses their power to influence political maps/campaign financement/public adresses.

And if I remember well, at the beggining of the Iraqi Invasion, pro-War factions within the U.S. were almost the sole speakers, anti-War peoples were silenced (except maybe Micheal Moore, but I can't say that's good for the anti-War).

One of the greatest anti-War voices in the U.S. (and World) were the French government, and we all know what happened. No one could critize the War, even if most of the reasons it was rushed were false. Now, maybe it's not pure brainwashing, but it's close to propaganda.

WOW. You sure worry about the AMERICANS a lot how about some of Kanada's problems?

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/marine_mammals_news/canadas_new_seal_hunt_season_has_familiar_problems_big_quotas_little_logic.html

Embarrassed by the international criticism, the Canadian government has vehemently denied charges that the hunt targets seal pups, but that government's own figures show that 96.6% of the 286,238 seals reported killed during last year's hunt were between 12 days and 12 weeks old. It's the only major hunt, anywhere in the world, to target young animals. Not much to be proud of.

These cute, cuddly, ADORABLE seal pups are worth more than ANY unwashed Islamo-Fascists' life, IMHO.

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U.N. anti-North Korea resolution PASSED! Not that the U.N. will actually DO anything, but it's a start....

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Ah just ignore North Korea, sure they got nukes and there crazy, but really if we leave them alone i'm sure they will fade away, the stupid communist core russia did and all we had to do was make sure there wasn't aliens on the moon, and build a better bomb, and they crumbled. Now all we have to do is build some better bombs and get to mars, rinse and repeat for cuba and china.

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I didn't really read other posts but I know somebody whines about how America is a capitalist, corrupt contry with ET in Area 51, and you know your full of shit, and I know that it was someone from the U.K., you know everyone thinks America's bad because they don't have a country to be proud of. The U.K. thinks that our government is corrupt, oh yeah and having a "king" your word for tyrant is so much better, you with your dumb robot guards who don't move. Now I don't have anything against the U.K. but you people think your so much better than everyone else. Oh and for those who think America are oppressors, think about this, our ancestors endured oppressment by the English monarch.

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This I keep hearing again and again. Everybody is greatful that the USA gave Nazi-Germany the final blow, we all know that by now.
But I could just as well argue that Americans should obey to all French demands, since France played a major role in the american independance war. Or I could argue that we should all obey Russia, since Russia made the largest contribution of all nations to defeat germany in WW2, the greatest losses germany suffered from Russia.
Btw: Canada didn't lay back and wait for uncle sam to defeat Germany. Canadians had many losses and sacrifices too, just like the Americans, or the british, or the russians (especially).... Go look at the table of casualties to get a idea who contributed what to WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_deaths
Its not like the USA saved the whole world on its own or something like that, sorry to disappoint you here, but live isn't a hollywood-war Film

See a commie right there "everyone should obey russsia and france", but you know what we won't and NEVER obey anyone NO WAY, NO HOW, and do you know why, BECAUSE WERE AMERICANS, PROUD AMERICANS AND NO WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO OBEY RUSSIA OR FRANCE , AND YES AMERICA'S TROOPS DID PRACTICLY SAVE THE WORLD, and you what unlike other counties who pathaticly fell to one enemy America fought on ALL fronts, people act like it was only the Nazies who fought, but also there were the Japanese and the aw dammit braindead, who were the other dudes? Well there was a third... some were in Europe. Could any other countrie keep fighting on both East AND west fronts, simple answer NO. Sorry for my anger but WHAT THE HELL IS WITH YOU PEOPLE? God it piss's me off on the "America's corrupt, Bush is evil" band wagon, don't get me wrong I hate Bush to but ... WE KNOW YOU HATE BUSH, God it's getting anoyying.

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God it's getting anoyying.

So is listening to the rant of a brain dead 13 year old who doesn't know what he's talking about.

AND YES AMERICA'S TROOPS DID PRACTICLY SAVE THE WORLD, and you what unlike other counties who pathaticly fell to one enemy America fought on ALL fronts

Fell? Pathetically? We fought for 6 years. BEFORE YOU LOT CAME ALONG. And no, we weren't losing. And no, America didn't save the world. The Germans had outstretched themselves, and America being there sealed the deal.

Why don't you shut up about things you don't know anything about, you arrogant, idiotic little git?

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These cute, cuddly, ADORABLE seal pups are worth more than ANY unwashed Islamo-Fascists' life, IMHO.

Wow.. I just... wow.. I mean you.. you really MEAN that an animal life may be worth more than a human's? You really mean that because Greenpeace pointed the finger at us for the seals, that we are one of the worst country ever? that it discretite us?

However, the fact that the U.S. Governement violated its own law and international treaties frequently is of no consequence: you are still the "good guys", and can tell everybody what's right and wrong?

It's what upset me the most about U.S. culture as a whole. They simply keep telling themselves that they are the "good guys", and everybody should be like them, or at least love them. That they have no flaw, or at least EVERY FLAW they have is justified. That they have the right to tell if one governement is okay or not.

Who put you in charge of the world, sir? Since when U.S.A. is the crowned nation?

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These cute, cuddly, ADORABLE seal pups are worth more than ANY unwashed Islamo-Fascists' life, IMHO.

Wow.. I just... wow.. I mean you.. you really MEAN that an animal life may be worth more than a human's? You really mean that because Greenpeace pointed the finger at us for the seals, that we are one of the worst country ever? that it discretite us?

However, the fact that the U.S. Governement violated its own law and international treaties frequently is of no consequence: you are still the "good guys", and can tell everybody what's right and wrong?

It's what upset me the most about U.S. culture as a whole. They simply keep telling themselves that they are the "good guys", and everybody should be like them, or at least love them. That they have no flaw, or at least EVERY FLAW they have is justified. That they have the right to tell if one governement is okay or not.

Who put you in charge of the world, sir? Since when U.S.A. is the crowned nation?

Um, the seal pup thing was A JOKE, genius. However, they are still worth more than the life of any Islamo-facist. What a suprise you would defend them.

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Well we became the crowned rulers of the world when the Soviet Union crumbled and left us as the sole superpower on the planet. And since we are practicly the leader of the UN security council well we kinda have a diplomatic victory going for us

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I don'T think you'll make diplomatic victory just.. yet. After all, France is still the one standing up to you when U.S. gets too arrogant.

And your previous cultural domination strategy, while being incridebly effective from the 50s to the 90s, is beggining to fade away. The U.N. is even considering a proposition to restrict cultural dumping..

That should be something included in the game.. when you are the sole superpower present, a trend of.. anti-superpowerism culture is developping, because no one trust a superpower.

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Summery of this thread.

Lib:
North Korea shoots missle's. And "evil" capitalist America is to blame.

.

Con:

North Korea Needs to be bombed. USA army Number #1, All your Base, belongs to us.

My Ishtar, Couldn't somebody at least post a original idea.

Exp. Bush is a "evil" tm* Snathi in disguise. Fight the power, impeach the "Snathi".

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A war with North Korea would be, quite frankly, a shit idea. Not because they could win, but because of the aftermath.

I've been following news about the kidnapped Japanese civilians and the test missiles closely for a while now. I've been reading western news, korean news, korean forums, and watching every documentary about the country that I can find.

What I can tell you is, the amount of propaganda and brainwashing in the country is mind boggling. They have completely twisted world history, and teach their children all sorts of nonsense about the rest of the world.

People are taught that American people are cruel and twisted, and the American army sticks bayonets through babies and tortures women and such. The cult of personality around their leader creates an unshakeable faith.

Did you know, that many people in North Korea believe that the rest of the world is far worse off than them, and they live in some kind of paradise, and they have more food than other countries etc.?

A war will never work. If the North Korean regime was toppled by force, the people would never trust you. To them you are evil invading forces, and they would have to defend themselves from torture and death. Even school children are given basic firearms training. If children took up arms to fight, what do you think your forces would do?

The only way to save these people, is to embrace peace, and allow outside news and culture to filter in. If the North Korean people began to learn more about the outside world, and had a chance to see for themselves the truth behind many of their governments shadowy lies, then you will have won a tremendous victory.

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I agree a war with the north cant really be won. Just like every other tyrannical government it will cave in on itself. Once the north Koreans learn whay the rest of the world is really like they will demand that they become like it. I dont think it will be Western culture that does it though. Japan is in a pivotal postion right now. If they stand up and take a leadership role, that region of the world will become much better.

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Korean Test Missile

To Shoot or not to Shoot that is the question.