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Pro-Choice or Pro-Abortion?

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messybuu
vernmeister2u
Join Date 03/2003
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Reply #76 April 13, 2004 9:17:57 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
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messybuu
jeblackstar
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #77 April 13, 2004 9:24:15 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If the husband could carry around the baby for nine months, then he could have a choice, if not, then no, he couldn't.

Marriage vows do not give a person control over the person's body. Your basic premise is that Abortion is Murder. You believe this because you think a fetus is a person. I do not, moreover, medical evidence backs me up, until late in the pregnancy, and I believe there should be a time cutoff for when abortions can be preformed, the fetus' development is not far enough along to exist outside of the mother's womb. Until that point I support abortions, beyond it, the mother has allowed a person to form, and therefore has made her choice.

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messybuu
Poetmom99
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #78 April 13, 2004 9:42:52 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
"I am pro-choice. But, I personally could never have an abortion. But, I do not feel that it is my right to decide what other people do. "


This is MY view on the issue, as well. Very well put.

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messybuu
MyViewsAndMuse
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #79 April 13, 2004 10:10:15 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
"Short answer sgsmitty, yes."

Which I find pathetic. I suggest you consider why you think a child in the womb is not a child. Forget the law, think for yourself. Why?
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messybuu
jeblackstar
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Reply #80 April 13, 2004 10:15:35 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Before a certain point, which as my post above explains, a fetus is not viable outside of the womb, at that point it has an underdeveloped neurological structure and could not survive ex utero. Up until the point where the "Child" becomes viable ex utero, I support abortions, after that point, I do not support them. That's the perfect Solomon solution, isn't sgsmitty, since a fetus is capable of surving out of the womb after about five months, it neatly splits down the middle the pregnancy. You throw the word Pathetic around an aweful lot for someone who makes blanket statements.

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messybuu
MyViewsAndMuse
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Reply #81 April 13, 2004 12:42:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So, a child is born premature and lives in ICU. Just prior to the premature birth the child is a fetus and thus can be murdered. Now, however, since it is ex utero (however, not viable by itself) if I run into the room and smash its' skull I will be arrested. The only difference being the physical location and the connection to the mother.
Many full term babies are born with difficulties that require them to have artificial support, are they not "human" yet?

As for the after the 5th month argument.... (WebMD.com)
After the fourth month the child (while only 4.5 inches long) has a fully functioning nervous system, muscles, beating heart, may suck its' thumb, responsive to outside stimili, etc.
During the 5th month it yawns and stretches, makes facial expressions, hiccups, eyes sensitive to light, etc.

So you would be willing to kill a child (fetus if it matters) during fourth or 5th month? Could you personally do it? Maybe be the doctor who does the deed?
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messybuu
jeblackstar
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Reply #82 April 13, 2004 1:24:46 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If I were licensed, yes, I could. Could you be the person who sat in a tree outside my clinic and shot me for it?

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messybuu
shadesofgrey
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #83 April 13, 2004 1:32:09 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I was just about to say, "before this argument gets out of hand," but it already has...I will state my point anyway.

You can't arbitrarily choose a date and declare that the viability date of a fetus. Not every fetus is viable at 5 months, and some are viable at 3! Many pro-choicers are opposed to post-viability abortions, in fact, NARAL ProChoice America does not oppose restrictions on post-viability abortion. The debate is who decides viability. You can't legislate a date, it has to be a physcian's decision.
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messybuu
vernmeister2u
Join Date 03/2003
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Reply #84 April 13, 2004 3:18:10 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So your short answer Jeb is yes, you support her exclusive choice. And really all the dire situations you previously mentioned really don't matter. It could be a whimsical decision and it wouldn't make a difference to you. There is no further agreement we can reach on this matter.

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messybuu
KarmaGirl
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #85 April 13, 2004 3:29:08 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

You can't arbitrarily choose a date and declare that the viability date of a fetus. Not every fetus is viable at 5 months, and some are viable at 3!

Viable at 3 months?  What?  Can you show any case of a 12 week old fetus being viable?  I think you need to learn a bit more about fetal development: http://health.discovery.com/centers/pregnancy/americanbaby/fetaldevelopment.html

Abortion is only legal through the first trimester in all states.  The partial birth abortion is a whole different story.  (That's the whole ban that they are working on)

In this debate, it has been said that male "consequences" are child support.  Oh...what a consequence.  You first have to prove that the guy was the father (track him down, do DNA testing) then you can work on forcing him to pay.  The kid will be out of college before then.  And, that is *money*.  It isn't his body, his mental health, his physical health, his inability to work (even if you give the child up for adoption, you'll be out of work for awhile, especially if you have a c-section) or any of the other social impacts.  The guy can get away with *paying* if he is found to be the father.

The example of the married couple is a far reach.  Do you know for sure that a married woman can get an abortion without her husband's consent?  I'm not sure.  When I asked people who supposedly "know everything" they couldn't say for sure, either.  But, even with that, what if they *did* use birth control and it failed?  What if they didn't want to be parents, or there were reasons why they weren't sure if they wanted to have children?  Or, what if she used the "morning after" pill?  Is that still an abortion?

As I stated *I* could never have an abortion, but there are so many reasons why I could see that it should remain a choice.  I have a 5 year old.  My pregnancy and her birth were some of the worst days of my life.  Then I was sick (so sick that there was no way that I could hardly even leave the house) for almost 6 months after.  If I were one of the women who decided to have an abortion, but you say I shouldn't, then who would have helped me after the baby was born?  So, if I had the baby and gave it up for adoption, I still had that 15+ months of my life stripped away from me and health issues that will plague me for the rest of my life. How is that a great option?  But, it was my decision to get pregnant (as it was planned) and my decision to have the baby.  But, that was my choice.  I can easily see how somebody else would have chosen different.  But, that would be *their* choice.

I am pro-choice, but personally pro-life.  It's my choice.  And, it is still my legal choice.  Back to the topic, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.  Many people (like myself) simply feel that it is not our place to judge what others do with their bodies. 

A few questions to pro-lifers here:
How many unwanted children have you personally adopted?  (There are plenty of them out there)
How much do you donate each year to charities that help unwanted children or provide resources to women who opt not to abort?
How active are you in helping educate the youth (outside of church) about safe sex?
Did you wait until you were married to have sex?  If not, can you imagine your life if you would have had a child with somebody out of wedlock?

I really don't need answers to those questions.  They are more like points to ponder than anything else.......

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messybuu
MyViewsAndMuse
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #86 April 13, 2004 4:13:27 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If I were licensed, yes, I could. Could you be the person who sat in a tree outside my clinic and shot me for it?

Tsk, tsk. not sure where this is coming from. Some wild assumption I guess.

Back to the topic, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. Many people (like myself) simply feel that it is not our place to judge what others do with their bodies.

Er, what is pro-abortion? If you are pro-choice then you support the right of abortion. The issue is not so much the right to your body as it is the right of the unborn. That it involves your body is unfortunate but a fact of life. As for judging what other's do with there bodies, do you then support other personal issues such as prostitution or drugs?

As to all the questions, I guess for some they might be thought provoking. But it comes down to whether someone else should die because of a mistake or because of the hassle it would cause in someone's life?
I am sure to some my arguing back on these points is not following "blog" etiquette. But I can no more let someone dismiss my feelings anymore than they would let me say that abortion is murder.
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messybuu
shadesofgrey
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #87 April 13, 2004 6:11:29 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Karmagirl:

You are probably right about viability-- I was simply trying to make the point that you can't pinpoint an exact date of viability, but I should have used a more believable example.

Abortion is only legal through the first trimester in all states. The partial birth abortion is a whole different story. (That's the whole ban that they are working on)


Actually there are quite a few states that still ban abortion outright, many of the laws are from pre-Roe days. But Louisana and Utah have post-Roe bans on abortion.
Also, the Ban on Partial Birth Abortions was signed into law on November 5, 2003.

Back to the topic, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. Many people (like myself) simply feel that it is not our place to judge what others do with their bodies.


Perfectly stated. I couldn't agree more!
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