Excuse me, I had to go throw-up before I could complete my thought here. Even as I try to complete the thought, I'm still facing a severe urge to hurl.

You know, perhaps I should be getting behind the Dems, demanding universal health care, so that when they do take control I'll have enough docs looking at me helping me survive the daily hurling spells that are sure to come.

gas prices out the window

Me guesses that the idiot that wrote those words immediately above never lived through Jimmy Carter. The same would apply to the comments quoted below ... Carter was great for interest rates, inflation and the economy in general, wasn't he?

Clinton years a bright balance sheet.

Hmm, who controlled the congress while Clinton was in the white house? Ooops, blew your theories out of the water now, didn't we?

Hello terpfan, this idiot was not only around when Mr. Carter was president, he voted for him. I think it was OPEC that had us by the short hairs that time or don't you remember them? Do you really think that a Republican congress filled with rich guys really made a difference for the little guy? I don't think so. I believe they were right there working hard for Enron, idiot. On the other hand, I believe it was the hope instilled by a president who was highly motivated and smart, who worked hard to find a middle way through the trenches that helped this country get back on its feet. Its not a theory. We were a whole lot better off during the Clinton years than we are now.

Be well.

"One need only look at history to see what the Democratic Party has accomplished: Fair wages, medical care, social security, unemployment insurance and in the Clinton years a bright balance sheet. One need only look at the Republican Party for the antidote: corporate wrongdoing, religion in government, torture, arrest and wiretap without warrant, war profiteering, war, a reduced standard of living, debt up to the old asshole and building, gas prices out the window, several key Republican strategists under investigation, a President who lied, leaked information about a CIA agent for political gain. Oh yeah we're in good hands with the haves and want-to-keeps of the country."

According to most Democrats we don't have fair wages, so you can take that one off the list and add it to the list of things Dems have claimed to have done and instead just raised taxes and wasted a lot of money.

Medical Care? Urm, that's a joke... right? This is the party whose stance is that don't have to have a plan, they only have to oppose Republican plans. Hillary got appointed the job of dealing with that by her hubby and what a GOOD job she did.

Social Security? The Dems that founded that would be considered traitors by Dems today, and the system they created is considered "broken" or ineffectual by most Dems I talked to. Again, it's also a problem that Nancy Pelosi herself said that they didn't need to have a plan for, only oppose Republican plans. Heard her say that one with my own ears.

Unemployment insurance? That's great for a party that does its best to promote unemployment by predatory tax policies against business owners, making it more lucrative to move elsewhere or outsource.

Balanced budget? Given the purse strings are held by the Congress, and that Congress was Republican dominated at the time... well, I think you can figure the rest out.


as for your estimation of Republicans...

Corporate wrongdoing? Bleh, Dems are up to their armpits in corporate money, and you're blind if you think Republicans are an ounce worse.

Religion in government: Haven't seen any. If you are talking about rhetoric, I think you need to go back and read a lot of what Clinton said. He pulled the old religion chain constantly until they found the blue dress.

Torture? I don't know what party the folks at Abu Garaib belonged to, but they didn't hold any office. A buddhist should understand that "torture" has no dividing lines, so a government trying to decide what it is makes perfect sense. At least Republicans have been focused on wartime enemies. Look at Clinton's ATF if you want to see how Dems crush their enemies.

Arrest and wiretap without warrant? Name a few arrests, if you don't mind and if you aren't just babbling Dem propaganda. Find me a US citizen that was tapped speaking to someone else in the US. If you are talking about people on the phone with terrorist suspects overseas, well, check a poll or two. The American people don't agree with you on those.

War profiteering. Again name someone who has. Name a war that isn't profitable, and name a company made up of only Republicans. Feel free to point out what Dems have done to oppose the war other than a few token votes they knew they'd lose from the furthest left legislators during elections to pander to folks like you.

A reduced standard of living? You might want to check that. They are building houses like mad around here, all in the price range higher than mine, and the Fed has been raising interest rates like mad to make people at least pretend that times are tough. More false propaganda.

Debt? That I agree with but putting dems in office doesn't pay off debt, it just raises taxes for pork back in the home state and no debt gets paid off.

Gas prices? China isn't a Republican organization. I'd like to see you explain how Republicans are responsible for gas prices.

Investigations? That's pretty selective, given Dems are in the same boat. Of course if you think that stealing taxpayer dollars is somehow better than taking lobbyist money, well, it would make sense, since, well, you're a Democrat and they steal tax dollars...

A President who lied? I know of one who did, but he wasn't Republican. Don't know of any lies that Bush told that aren't easily explainable. Easier than explaining using an aide as a cigar holder while a million people die in Rwanda when it wasn't in our interest to help.

The leak thing has been done to death. If you are still believing lies, well, live in your deluded little world. Joe and his wife have been debunked time and again.

Again, another Dem whose job it is to oppose, not PROpose. Prove to me that Dems will do a better job. I bet you can't.

Do you really think that a Republican congress filled with rich guys really made a difference for the little guy? I don't think so.

Kerry, Kennedy, Feinstein - all solid republicans!  Yup!

Again, another Dem whose job it is to oppose, not PROpose. Prove to me that Dems will do a better job. I bet you can't.

Good Morning BakerStreet,

Thank you for your lengthy reply in the negative. It would seem ideologies color our vision, both of us. From my point of view, as a person, I try to begin from what I perceive will be benefificial to human beings. My experience, distorted as you may think it is, is that conservatives really want to keep things as they are and that progressives are all about change and growth. Now one could argue that conservatives are not the same as Republicans and that progressives are not the same as Democrats, and as centrists, I would agree. However, the political areena has so polarized that a centrist perspective, while sorely necessary, is hardly considered. In the end, I see a Republican government hell bent on going to war, raking up billions of dollars in national debt to the Chinese and the rest of the world, rationalizing violence every step of the way. Now we are smarter than that. We can find peavceful solutions to world problems, but we must be willing to quit this God-forsaken stupid postureing to do so.

As far as your individual replies go, here's the deal. Progressive democrats argue for people, wages, social security, and unemployment compensation. Conservatives argue for the dominance of business over against the interests of employees. One only need look at the constant flow of litigation through the history to see this truth. Somewhere in between a balance must be struck between greed and the well-being of people.

At this point, I do not trust that Republicans can work and play well with others, not in this country or in the world. My sense is that we need a government willing to engage the world in an intelligent and articulaste manner. Rhetoric of war needs to be met with the rhetoric o peace and a willingness to find solutions that doesn't consume human beings.

Be well.

You can argue for lots of things. I can argue for lollipop trees. The difference is people who really intend to IMPLEMENT those things also have ways of doing it. Democrats sit and propose tons of stuff, just loud enough for reporters to hear them during an election year. Then they divert millions in taxes to "look into" doing them. Then after about ten years they either put something together like the broken systems we have now, or decide that their real job is to oppose the Republican plan.

You dodge nicely, but the fact of the matter is you are just arguing against, not for. Pelosi has done nothing except create the status quo you hate. If you want to argue against Republicans, great, but don't pretend that the Dems who would take their place are an ounce better.

#15 by Sodaiho Monday, May 08, 2006

. All I see on JU is rants against liberals, dems, and any one left of the right, not even center. How does this facilitate dialogue? A little tossing of the same crap the right throws out hopefully evens things out, but this is likely a mistaken view as I think about it.

here we agree. I have changed my mind several times about left and right, now I think both parties are scum and self serving bastages.

social security revamping comes to mind, here, among other Republican attempts to take away from people

It is breathtaking how effective the demagoguing has been on this issue, as evidenced by this comment. Without some sort of reform, SS will be broke soon. There is no escaping the demographics, unless we start euthanizing people over 60 pretty damn quick. All the hullabaloo about the declining "quality" of jobs being created is nothing compared to the effect of having one worker supporting 5 retirees. No other issue so clearly demonstrates the moral bankrupcy of the left - after clammoring for years about how it needs to be fixed & doing nothing to fix it while in power, the first President with the balls to touch the "third rail" even a teeny bit gets castigated by the left as a thief, trying to steal from poor old seniors. "We must preserve Social Security" is the cry, which is akin to preserving Lenin. The status quo is simply unsustainable, but that's what the left wants to "fight for." Isn't the status quo supposed to be the right's turf? This is classic "With friends like these, who needs enemies?"

Dr. Guy -

When attempts to debate result in replies such as, "You DUMBASS," such attempts quickly lose their appeal. I don't buy the charge that JU is a "rightwing" site. I read it as much for stevendedalus, kingbee & even Myrrander as for any others who've been labeled (by the left, usually) rightwing. I must admit I cannot overcome my curiosity with what Gene will say next, despite his predictability, and find myself reading his shit for entertainment purposes despite my repeated oaths to ignore him. I'm going to have to find a twelve-step program for that, it appears.

We're also in a bit of a lull politically. Thinks will get cranking again as the elections approach.

Except for the king part, I have to agree with you in principle, MasonM.

We're left with a Hobson's choice.

But I think the country does better with Republican crooks in control than with Democrat crooks. The law of unintended consequences tends to be a little less of a problem with the Repubs (excluding McCain-Feingold, of course). It'll be interesting to see if the general public has similar sentiments come November.

I understand the sentiment, terp, but I just can't get myself interested in the points business, positive or negative. Lots of points doesn't give Gene an extra microgram of credibility... make that any credibility... but if points give him pleasure and somehow validate his self-worth, let him wallow in his delusions all he wants.