Only the blue magnets were left......

cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

It reinforces in some way my general and totally unsupported view of the two sides though. Most military patriots tend to go for public displays. Most social patriots don't. Sure, you get subgroups of both that go against the norm, but it's always seemed fairly consistent to me.

Take it as a source of pride if you like, but to be honest I would be surprised if you sold a lot of the blue ones in the first place. I wouldn't buy a cheap, Chinese-produced badge to demonstrate my lack of support for what, if I was a blue badge buyer, I would presumably consider an imperial agenda.

It would kind of be defeating the purpose of opposition.

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Rightwinger: It's a popular trend for discount stores and gas stations to sell these types of things, but the best way to buy them is to go straight to an FRG (Family Readiness Group). The money is then used to provide activities for the family members left behind during a deployment and/or provide homecoming celebrations for the troops at the end of their tour.

I generally don't like the ribbon magnets, although I've had some. I think the "Support our Troops" thing reads like a command, and I think it's kind of rude. "I Support our Troops" would be better. Dunno.

I bought "Keep My Husband Safe" and "Keep My Daddy Safe". To me, "Keep My fill-in-the-blank Safe" is the same message as "Bring Our Troops Home Safely". Someone who supports the war should, hopefully, still want to bring our troops home safely.

That doesn't necessarily mean, do it today. I take it to mean a wish for each troop to return safely from his or her tour of duty. That's just me, though.

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I like almost anything with a US flag on it. I am proud of my country and would proudly show iit's flag anywhere I go. I wouldn't have minded buying both pins, if I liked them both. I am one who wants our boys home, but also want things done right in Iraq before we do.

I can see your point RW and honestly I, too, would have seen it that way as well. After all, that is how stores know what people like and want. I don't necesarily agree with the idea about some who don't agree with cactoblasta about:

Most military patriots tend to go for public displays. Most social patriots don't.

or

Take it as a source of pride if you like, but to be honest I would be surprised if you sold a lot of the blue ones in the first place. I wouldn't buy a cheap, Chinese-produced badge to demonstrate my lack of support for what, if I was a blue badge buyer, I would presumably consider an imperial agenda.

This kinda sounds a bit stereotypical to me. And as little-whip said:

And I had to laugh when you said they dont go for public displays, ever hear of Cindy Sheehan and her supporters? Groups that protest at military funerals? The ones who march in support of illegal aliens, partial birth abortion, and murderous Muslims?

Seems to me like these "social patriots" are the ones going for public displays, usually pretty disgusting in nature, too.

I couldn't have put it better myself. I believe people would by either pin depending on if they like them, if they feel the pin represents what they feel and if they could afford it (even at a cheap price). To say you wouldn't by it simply because it's cheap is insulting those who did by it for the meaning not the material value. JMO.

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To say you wouldn't by it simply because it's cheap is insulting those who did by it for the meaning not the material value.

There's not a whole lot of meaning in a bumper sticker or car magnet. There are plenty of ways to DO something that shows support, but more than anything, these car adornments serve to make the person who buys them feel good, they don't contribute actual support to the troops.

If it makes someone happy then more power to 'em. Let's not pretend, though, that it's a big sacrifice or special statement to spend $5 on a cheap magnet and stick it on the back of your car.

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I donate to the vets groups that send out mailing labels and things like that, and try to remember the vets I know on holidays, with small gifts of appreciation even if i dont know them very well.

That's the kind of stuff that matters. The actions that help real people. I'm not surprised that you do those sort of things, though.

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There's not a whole lot of meaning in a bumper sticker or car magnet. There are plenty of ways to DO something that shows support, but more than anything, these car adornments serve to make the person who buys them feel good, they don't contribute actual support to the troops.

If it makes someone happy then more power to 'em. Let's not pretend, though, that it's a big sacrifice or special statement to spend $5 on a cheap magnet and stick it on the back of your car.

I know what you mean, but people have the right to support their troops any way they chose. We, as American citizens paying taxes, support a lot everytime we pay taxes. Buying a pin makes us feel good but that is just part of the support not the whole thing. You can't speak as if the pin is the only thing people buy or do to support. Not knowing what those who buy these pins do gives very little to say about if they give money for other things like LW said she does.

That's the kind of stuff that matters. The actions that help real people. I'm not surprised that you do those sort of things, though.

With an answer like that you tend to give me the idea that money is all that really matters. That we can't say we support you, that somehow material things, like money, is a better way to show your support and that's not fair.

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Oh well we just see things a bit differently. No big deal right?

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I know what you mean, but people have the right to support their troops any way they chose.

You have a right to put whatever you want on your car. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it's real support. It's just lipservice.

We, as American citizens paying taxes, support a lot everytime we pay taxes.

OMG. Are you serious? You think that you "support the troops" by paying taxes? Something you're legally bound to do! Hahahahhahahaahaha. You don't have a choice. I wouldn't call that support.

You can't speak as if the pin is the only thing people buy or do to support. Not knowing what those who buy these pins do gives very little to say about if they give money for other things like LW said she does.

I didn't say that. Reread what I've posted.

Buying a $5 magnet from Gas N' Go doesn't do anything tangible for the troops. And go ahead and ask some service members if it's a big morale boost. I think you'll be surprised at the answer you get. Slapping on a magnet is not an indicator of support. One can have one and not do a damn thing to help and one can not have one and be involved in all sorts of efforts. Or vice versa.

The magnet alone is not support in any real sense. That's the point I'm making.

With an answer like that you tend to give me the idea that money is all that really matters. That we can't say we support you, that somehow material things, like money, is a better way to show your support and that's not fair.

Money, time, effort. These things matter. Saying you support the troops doesn't help them or their families. Donating money or goods to Operation Gratitude helps. Sending letters or care packages to deployed troops helps. Donating phone cards helps. Offering a discount at your place of business for military and their families helps. Baking a casserole or babysitting for a frazzled wife whose husband is deployed helps. Donating money to FRGs helps. Inviting a vet over for dinner helps. Donating money to vet organizations helps. Etc., etc., etc.

There are tons of ways to do something real that will positively impact the military. Buying an overpriced car magnet from a convenience store doesn't do anything real or helpful.

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No big deal right?

No big deal. Just discussion. Nothing personal.

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It reinforces in some way my general and totally unsupported view of the two sides though. Most military patriots tend to go for public displays. Most social patriots don't. Sure, you get subgroups of both that go against the norm, but it's always seemed fairly consistent to me.

I agree, but see it for a different reason. One is not afraid of the strength of their convictions, the other is ashamed of them.

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Wow....I appreciate all the comments, guys. And Tex is back! Another of my favorites returns to the flock!

The blue magnets are, indeed, an attempt to profitably tap into the anti-war sentiment by giving them a subtle way to express their displeasure in a way that won't get them beat up or their cars vandalized.
"Bring our troops home safely " could mean almost anything, yes, but that is what it's for.
See, though I acknowledge that the whole magnet thing really means nothing in the overall scheme, as Charles C. said:

After all, that is how stores know what people like and want.

And that's exactly right; and I watch what is sold and what is not. That's how I come to feel that the "majority of Americans" who are against the war and such is just a crock of baby poop made up by the MSM, which in fact opposes the war.
See, I usually dismiss opinion polls of any kind; they can be so easily manipulated.

Poll taker #1: "Let's go and get some public opinions on how Bush is doing."

Poll taker #2: "Where should we go?"

Poll taker #1: "This Organic-Vegetarian Food store in Berkeley, California looks good."

Polltaker #1 (later) "Wow! 100% of the American people are against Bush!"

But this isn't a poll; it's real people buying a "feel-good" item to show their support for their country and its troops. And its efforts.
I can't speak for the soldiers, Tex, of course, but I'd think that coming home and seeing so many of those magnets so prominently displayed would have at least some effect on their morale, knowing that the public is behind them. More than the guys in Vietnam had.

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

Social patriot? Thats a new one for me.

New for me too. I was trying to think of a term for an opponent of the war which doesn't denigrate them yet clearly seperates them from the pro-military position of the other badge. Not all opponents of the war are socialists. There's a fair few conservatives too. Why should they be excluded? And could you imagine them wearing a badge saying bring the troops home?

The ones who march in support of illegal aliens, partial birth abortion, and murderous Muslims?

To the best of my knowledge the war isn't being fought over partial birth abortion or illegal aliens. Perhaps you have it confused with something else?

I couldn't have put it better myself. I believe people would by either pin depending on if they like them, if they feel the pin represents what they feel and if they could afford it (even at a cheap price). To say you wouldn't by it simply because it's cheap is insulting those who did by it for the meaning not the material value. JMO.

Really? I was trying to get at the counter-productive nature of the symbol. It's not just cheap, it's probably mass-produced by near-slave labour in some factory in China. Buying one, as Tex said, doesn't mean much because it's unlikely the soldiers will ever know. Certainly the profits aren't entirely going to the war-widows. To a small extent it's like buying a Che Guevara shirt made by Armani; while most wouldn't consider it selling out, you could take it that way and maybe some people are.

I guess what I'm basically getting at is that there's no point saying that magnet sales reflect anything really. There's no significant data released on supporters vs opponents of the war, and no conclusive evidence to suggest that both sides would be equally represented as shoppers at your store. In any case I'm not convinced that badge sales are useful for anything save stupid traps, but I guess I'm in a minority here.

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

Bypassing your disclaimer that there are a "few" conservatives to be counted among the anti-war crowd, if we can agree that that *most* of them are of a liberal stripe, then it's only logical that *most* of them are also proponents of abortion, illegal immigrants, and enjoy loudly proclaiming that "Americans are the REAL terrorists."

Maybe. I don't claim to represent the American left. I'm neither American nor particularly anti-war these days. Some things have to be done; I've accepted that sometimes it's better the Americans do it than us 20 years in the future when we have no choice. I don't know if most of the anti-war crowd are proponents of abortion, illegal immigration and the belief that Americans are the real terrorists. Maybe they do, but I've seen no figures to suggest this. Until I do see some hard facts I'm not inclined to believe supposition.

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Really? I was trying to get at the counter-productive nature of the symbol. It's not just cheap, it's probably mass-produced by near-slave labour in some factory in China. Buying one, as Tex said, doesn't mean much because it's unlikely the soldiers will ever know.

---cacto

I agree in theory, but there are other ways of looking at this.
For example, I, myself, am not a big money-maker; I bought my first two magnets ("Pray for Our Troops" and a "POW/MIA") at a military museum that said the profits from the magnets went to various veteran and military families charities, along with funding the museum itself. Cool. I spent ten bucks. Five bucks a magnet, just to show my support. The POW/MIA magnet fell apart in about six months or so, but I do still have the other.
Now, I can pay out a goodly chunk to buy the ones at the museum (and it's been my experience that such items offered by the "legitimate" military/veterans charities DO usually cost more....much more), which definitely (so they said) do some good, or I can spend a buck and a half for the same things at the store and adorn my car the same way. All I want to do is show my support.
It's great when the money goes to genuinely help someone or something other than lining a pocket or three, but if I can't afford the more "purposeful" magnets, I'll have to settle for the cheapies; as I said, I just want to give moral support, and I do believe it does do some good along those lines. There are other, more tangible ways to give "real" support, as Tex pointed out.

To a small extent it's like buying a Che Guevara shirt made by Armani; while most wouldn't consider it selling out, you could take it that way and maybe some people are.

---cacto

I do; I think it's hilarious that Che, that great, militant, Communist Revolutionary, his family is rich because every time someone buys a Che poster, shirt, hat or whatever, they get a piece of it, for licensing his image. Capitalism at its best. Irony----gotta luv it.

I guess what I'm basically getting at is that there's no point saying that magnet sales reflect anything really. There's no significant data released on supporters vs opponents of the war, and no conclusive evidence to suggest that both sides would be equally represented as shoppers at your store.

---cacto

True, but it is a high-volume store, with a nice cross-section of the local populace, which is what pollsters are supposed to look for.
We get the poorer, the middle class and the wealthier of all different races. Lots of college students, too (it is, after all, a Dollar Store), and I've only seen one of them buy one of the blue magnets.
One regular, a young, college-age kid, is actually a big fan of right-wing talk radio and sometimes we discuss it when he comes in, if I'm not too busy. I'm going to ask him sometime soon why he's not in the military; I'd be interested to hear his answer.

Bypassing your disclaimer that there are a "few" conservatives to be counted among the anti-war crowd, if we can agree that that *most* of them are of a liberal stripe, then it's only logical that *most* of them are also proponents of abortion, illegal immigrants, and enjoy loudly proclaiming that "Americans are the REAL terrorists."

These sorts of folks aren't "social patriots," they are seditious leftists, and ought to be peeled alive for their treason.

----LW

Well said, LW. If they'd been so anti-American in word and deed a hundred and more years ago, hell, sixty or seventy years ago, it would have gotten them a "short drop and a sudden stop", perhaps a firing squad, or prison at the very least. Look at the Rosenbergs, for an example.
But hey.....we're more enlightened now, y'know, man? We don't do that anymore. We give the enemy room to breathe and operate; it's only fair, right? We're the big, bad US of A. We're the bully, no matter who attacked first.
You know, we used to work hard, together, and commit ourselves to wiping our enemies off the face of the Earth whenever their threats made it necessary; nowadays, we have to understand and tolerate them and their side. The times they have a'changed. And not for the better. The end is near, Im afraid.

Some things have to be done; I've accepted that sometimes it's better the Americans do it than us 20 years in the future when we have no choice.

---cacto

Agreed, and whole-heartedly; what's happening now in Iraq could have been avoided fifteen years ago.
But if you'll notice, for the last fifty or sixty years, it's mainly been America doing the rough stuff itself, giving most of the support and/or carrying the lion's share of other's loads, or being asked to take the lead in efforts begun by others. It always seems to be us, but yet we're always the bad guys. An odd paradox.

I don't know if most of the anti-war crowd are proponents of abortion, illegal immigration and the belief that Americans are the real terrorists.

---cacto

I'm not sure about "most" of them, either, greywar's evidence aside, but they are often at least the "most" vocal of the bunch. When you let the extremists speak for you, even if you don't agree with them, your silence speaks volumes to others.

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cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

I'm not sure about "most" of them, either, greywar's evidence aside, but they are often at least the "most" vocal of the bunch. When you let the extremists speak for you, even if you don't agree with them, your silence speaks volumes to others.

And I guess that's the biggest problem of any opposition. Every opposition has so many factions that nobody has the time to oppose the ridiculous arguments of all their fellow opponents. You just have to try to be reasonable and ignore the crazies, because if you spend all your time arguing with them you'll have none left to argue with the pro-camp. I guess that increasingly these days that doesn't happen, and you end up with the child-aborting graverobbing illegal alien loving bogeyman LW mentioned.

The problem with crazies is a) they have the bad manners to shout all day and

they are impervious to reason. Apart from a carefully targeted system of assassination I doubt there'd be anything a rational conservative or liberal opponent could do to shut up their obnoxious brethren, so generally noone bothers. Sure, it's not fair for you, but it's not fair for anyone really. The good arguments are ignored, the crazies are taken at face value as the only opposition, and normal people switch off. In the words of Ned Kelly 'such is life'.

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Only the blue magnets were left......

The others were purchased