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folkewolfe
folkewolfe
Join Date 03/2004
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AI question about tech trading among themselves

March 27, 2006 4:15:14 PM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
This has been bugging me alot and it is people posts quite a bit. First of all, people talk about the AI like it thinks or is almost real or has a personality. That gives me a chuckle.

Here is the question. Does any one have any proof that the AI really trades techs? Or is this just an assumption because there is no way they could have gotten what they have gotten without trading. Could it be, that since a computer can not think in heuristics that they have to program certain advantages for the computer.

I propose that the AI does not cheat but has certain built-in advantages to compensate for human intelligence. It has to be that way or it would not be challenge.
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folkewolfe
Monkey Pants
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #1 March 27, 2006 4:29:11 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Check the debug.err file - the AIs do trade between themselves - as they should.


That isn't giving them some built in advantage because they're not human - it's giving them the exact same abilities as the human player!
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folkewolfe
MonkeyLogic
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Reply #2 March 27, 2006 4:41:43 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
AI doesn't differentiate other players, AI or human. So there is no built-in advantages for them to gang up on human player, trade with each other, etc..
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folkewolfe
phbbt107
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Reply #3 March 27, 2006 4:44:01 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
you can trade tech too, i just find it annoying cause they always try to rip me off.
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folkewolfe
DavidBeoulve
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Reply #4 March 27, 2006 4:52:52 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Read the developer docs, blogs and interviews. The AI does not cheat. It caused them many headaches getting it working right while doing that -- no shortcuts.
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folkewolfe
Enigmatical
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Reply #5 March 27, 2006 4:55:18 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
What I want to know is whether this trade is automatic or whether there are factors involved in determining when/what to trade.

So will the Yor *always* trade mass drivers to the drengin? Or will it check their relations first, check their alliances, and through some formula determine if it does this.
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folkewolfe
folkewolfe
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Reply #6 March 27, 2006 4:58:41 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
That's my point. So they trade. Without seeing there deals you really don't know anything. They may trade them for free for all you know. Don't pretend like you do know either because you don't. The fact is, there are built in designs for the computer to be able to challenge a human. It's part of programming.

And yes, I know I can trade techs and do it all the time. You have to to survive on the higher levels.
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folkewolfe
alexwilber
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Reply #7 March 27, 2006 5:01:58 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Well, you have to remember that each AI can't tell if it's trading with another AI, or with the human player. Frogboy's been quite explicit in saying that the AIs can't differentiate other AIs from the player. So there's no way they'd trade techs for free, cos they wouldn't do that with you.
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folkewolfe
Monkey Pants
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Reply #8 March 27, 2006 5:02:55 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
MonkeyLogic (I assume he's a long lost brother of mine) made a VERY important point. The AI players (according to the guy that wrote the AI code if you can trust him ) said himself that the AI has no way to know if another player is human or com;puter controlled.

From personal experience (ie not stating a fact, but an educated guess from what I see), most/all of the AIs do some sort of checkis before deciding trades. The Drengin and Yor for example tend to trade more often between themselves than with the Altarians, say. This is mostly because (Again a guess) being evil military warmongers both of them, they'll be wanting similar techs anyway. Being of similar ethical alignment, they're more likely to be chummy than with those do-gooders.

I know everyone proposes trades with me FAR less often when I annoy them and have bad relations.
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folkewolfe
folkewolfe
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Reply #9 March 28, 2006 8:08:25 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Don't get me wrong. I love the game....except for the bugs.

I am sure the formula used to determine if they will trade with you includes morality, so the Yor will be more likely to trade with Dregin. I try to remain neutral because the evil races tend to survive in my games and good get wasted. I just can't get myself to go evil.

I tend to put a heavy emphasis on researching diplomacy techs, but I have not played enough games without them to know how much they really help. However, with them I seem to get fair trades but nothing overly in my favor either.
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folkewolfe
BladeVenom
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Reply #10 March 28, 2006 9:20:26 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Diplomacy is the best. It lets you earn good money from tech trading, and manipulate your opponents into fighting amongst themselves.
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folkewolfe
folkewolfe
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Reply #11 March 28, 2006 10:37:56 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I'm very wary of the the bribing a race to fight another player. I tried it only once and the other race instantly was aware of it and declared war on me. Not sure how he found out about it since you can't carry on a dialog with other races. I never get intel telling me that so and so is doing this to me.
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folkewolfe
MonkeyLogic
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Reply #12 March 28, 2006 11:51:24 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I had AI proposes tech trade to me many times, IN MY FAVORITE!!!

"What do you want and how badly do you want it?" is the question, and perhaps the only question. It is just that races with a simialr ethical alignment tend to want the same thing and because they have a simialr ethical alignment their relationship is much easier to build up. so they trade with each other more often.

remember, this question has a two-part check, what do you have and what are they willing to give up? So for the most of time, you might have something AI want but AI is not "willing" to part (check failure), or AI is "willing" to trade but you don't have anything AI want (evil tend to want weaponry, good want defense, netural want money stuff, all want production...well...this is what I observed).

So compare your list of tech and AIs next time, add in ethical alignment, relationship, and distance in between (playing as Yor with Drengin at opposite corner of galaxy, I am more willing to trade important tech with "him" because it will be a while before we meet and backstab each other , vice versa). Trade techs so you don't have to waste time on research it, to rise money to further develop your empire... just remember it might come back and bite you in the a$$ (be careful when you trade weaponry away, don't ever trust Drengin, Yor, Krox, Drath...acturally all of them! ). The way "tech trading" it is now actually make sense (to me, but then again I have logic of monkey ).

Also, AI doesn't feel pain, so they micro-manage every little detail to death for every single turn including tech trading! So while human player might click "end turn" few times in a row to pass time, AI empires are acturally working hard to out play all other empires by fighting, building, trading...

well, If you really don't like it, then patch 1.1 will have a option to stop tech trading.

good luck in the future games.

*hey, Monkey Pants, do you play metaverse games? want to form a *Monkey* empire together?
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folkewolfe
Monkey Pants
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Reply #13 March 28, 2006 5:47:39 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
folkewolfe - I think that was just bad timing. I set races on each other all the time, and I don't think I've ever seen them retaliate for it. After all, I doubt they're going to tell each other "haha we like you really, but they paid us to attack you". Knowing the way the devs want the game to be - "the AI and the human players are on equal footings where possible", it's fair to assume that if you dont get warnings that someone paid someone else off to attack you, the AI players don't either. Did you get any message saying he was aware of it, or is it just probably bad timing?

MonkeyLogic - now there's a plan.
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